Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[j.yank]

imagine yourself driving an F1 car and imagine being in on Hockenheim.
you've just hit the brakes until your eyeballs came out, currently you're in the hairpin looking for that nice and clean exit.

right in front of you a mercedes with HAM in it and on your tail a red hot VET.

so after the hairpin is a long(ish) straight and you have the choice of:
A) ICE (625hp)
B) ICE + ERS (625hp + 160hp)

A: you accellerate on the ICE alone and after 10 seconds you're doing 280kph (?)
B: you accellerate on the ICE and MGU-K (so you have the full 800pk push in the back and all the traction you need) and after 10 seconds you're doing 300 kph

Let's say after 10 seconds, ERS is depleted and all is equal. But you have a 20 kph advantage and thus a 0.2 sec advantage at the end of the straight.
Do this 4-5 times a lap and there is your difference.

ERS deployment at the beginning of the acceleration period adds to top speed and decreases laptime.

Adding to that, loss of MGU-H will decrease the braking ability of the car and compensation by the (undersized) rear brakes
and (overheating) front brakes as demonstraged by the mercs in canada 2014
Numbers are semi-fictional of course but I hope you get the point.

On the Hungaroring straight a 160 hp difference (and everything else being equal) makes 0.6 sec loss per lap. However, on my estimates Maclaren are only about 80 hp behind Mercedes. I don't expect Boullier to tell the truth and only the truth. In this case the loss should be around 0.3 sec per lap. Of course, this is hard to calculate the impact of other factors as downforce, tires, etc. but we are speaking only about the available power. Specifically on this circuit there are no more straights and that’s why Maclaren are capable to perform well against the other teams.

[iichel]

but in clean air it's much more than the 0.3 sec/lap that they're behind. it's not all engine power but i think the engine deficit is probably more than 0.3 sec/lap

[j.yank]

but in clean air it's much more than the 0.3 sec/lap that they're behind. it's not all engine power but i think the engine deficit is probably more than 0.3 sec/lap

My estimation is only for the straight. I do this with this calculator: http://www.baranidesign.com/acceleratio ... ation.html

For Hungaroring the straight length is 790 m, corner exit speed is 36.8 m/s, CFA around 1.3 for F1, Car CD for this circuit is between 0.98-1.02 but I guess that the client teams are running with lower values, drive train loss is about 7% for the factory teams and 9% for the clients. Then you can estimate to the guessed end power, which is 860 hp for Mercedes and 780 hp for Mclaren. Play around with these values and you will see pretty good match with the actual speed trap data from qualifications for all circuits.

[Jef Patat]

What a bunch of nonsense. Those numbers are made up estimates. There's never been any source in that direction. You could as well change the numbers a bit to prove another thing. Let's stick to 'facts':

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/ ... inant-pole:

Speaking to Sky Sports F1 after the session Button said: “Lap time other cars are quicker, but I think we got the best out of the car in qualifying – in terms of the balance of the car it felt good, but I didn’t have any [ERS] deployment all the way down the straight so it’s quite a lot of power – over three-tenths of lap time – and it’s a massive amount before you’ve even arrived in Turn One.

[j.yank]

What a bunch of nonsense. Those numbers are made up estimates. There's never been any source in that direction. You could as well change the numbers a bit to prove another thing. Let's stick to 'facts':

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/ ... inant-pole:

Speaking to Sky Sports F1 after the session Button said: “Lap time other cars are quicker, but I think we got the best out of the car in qualifying – in terms of the balance of the car it felt good, but I didn’t have any [ERS] deployment all the way down the straight so it’s quite a lot of power – over three-tenths of lap time – and it’s a massive amount before you’ve even arrived in Turn One.

Well, these 0.3 sec that Button talks about are exactly 80 hp deficit on this straight.

[GoranF1]

What a bunch of nonsense. Those numbers are made up estimates. There's never been any source in that direction. You could as well change the numbers a bit to prove another thing. Let's stick to 'facts':

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12040/ ... inant-pole:

Speaking to Sky Sports F1 after the session Button said: “Lap time other cars are quicker, but I think we got the best out of the car in qualifying – in terms of the balance of the car it felt good, but I didn’t have any [ERS] deployment all the way down the straight so it’s quite a lot of power – over three-tenths of lap time – and it’s a massive amount before you’ve even arrived in Turn One.

Well, these 0.3 sec that Button talks about are exactly 80 hp deficit on this straight.

we will trust you over Boulier then....

[vantage87]

McLaren MP4-30 - mirror fin - 27 Jul 2015


Hungary saw the final update to what effectively amounts to a B-spec version of the MP4-30 introduced at the British round by McLaren - a small twisted fin under the mirror, to better channel airflow to the rear of the car.
From Austria onwards McLaren have heavily evolved their car, with the short nose being introduced there. At Silverstone the new package comprising a front wing, bargeboard and diffuser moved the car on, and now this.
This latest piece appears to complete the programme, which has been inspired by incoming aerodynamicist Peter Prodromou.

[j.yank]

Well, these 0.3 sec that Button talks about are exactly 80 hp deficit on this straight.

we will trust you over Boulier then....

Why do you think that Boullier has interest to reveal the real numbers to the public and to their competitors? I am sure that the other teams have good idea what is the actual power of all cars but not the exact numbers. Telling what the real power deficit is can give them advantage in the strategies and planning for each race.

[GoranF1]

Well, these 0.3 sec that Button talks about are exactly 80 hp deficit on this straight.

we will trust you over Boulier then....

Why do you think that Boullier has interest to reveal the real numbers to the public and to their competitors? I am sure that the other teams have good idea what is the actual power of all cars but not the exact numbers. Telling what the real power deficit is can give them advantage in the strategies and planning for each race.

i agree that he didnt said rear numbers because Mclaren is still chasing title sponsor...real number is as BBC reported around 150hp

[Jef Patat]

Well, these 0.3 sec that Button talks about are exactly 80 hp deficit on this straight.

we will trust you over Boulier then....

Why do you think that Boullier has interest to reveal the real numbers to the public and to their competitors? I am sure that the other teams have good idea what is the actual power of all cars but not the exact numbers. Telling what the real power deficit is can give them advantage in the strategies and planning for each race.

Your explanation is a contradiction in itself. I agree that the teams have a pretty good idea of each other power, better than we do. But that also means Boullier has no idea on what the actual power of the Merc is (even though they were client last year) and thus cannot give the 'real power' deficit. I also don't see how this could give them advantage in strategies and planning. And as far as sponsors go. I have signed NDA's. Believe me, potential title sponsors will know more than we will ever know.

Those numbers are flying around like the truth is that simple. 80, 120, 150, 160 hp whatever, what does that learn us? ERS, ICE, capabilities or deployment, driveability, reliability, ...

I do find it interesting that the blaim is always in the direction of Honda. I suppose the marketing strategies can stand it. We for example never see opposite comparisons. For example, if MCL had the Merc engine then the chassis/aero package would be 0.5s faster than Merc?

Maybe you could make a calculation of that for us? Would that learn us the difference in drive train loss, drag, ... of Merc versus MCL? ( , sry, just teasing)

[j.yank]

i agree that he didnt said rear numbers because Mclaren is still chasing title sponsor...real number is as BBC reported around 150hp

This is up to you what to believe - media rumors or math calculations. The calculator that I posted is using "hard proven" information (length of straight, corner exit speed, speed trap), various internet sources (F1 car frontal area, F1 CDA, DTL) that have reasonable small margin of error, and what remains is the power. 120 hp difference simply can not match what we know for CDA and car frontal area of F1 cars. Also, as I said this calculation perfectly matches what Button says about 0.3 sec loss on the straight.

[j.yank]

Your explanation is a contradiction in itself. I agree that the teams have a pretty good idea of each other power, better than we do. But that also means Boullier has no idea on what the actual power of the Merc is (even though they were client last year) and thus cannot give the 'real power' deficit. I also don't see how this could give them advantage in strategies and planning. And as far as sponsors go. I have signed NDA's. Believe me, potential title sponsors will know more than we will ever know.

Those numbers are flying around like the truth is that simple. 80, 120, 150, 160 hp whatever, what does that learn us? ERS, ICE, capabilities or deployment, driveability, reliability, ...

I do find it interesting that the blaim is always in the direction of Honda. I suppose the marketing strategies can stand it. We for example never see opposite comparisons. For example, if MCL had the Merc engine then the chassis/aero package would be 0.5s faster than Merc?

Maybe you could make a calculation of that for us? Would that learn us the difference in drive train loss, drag, ... of Merc versus MCL? ( , sry, just teasing)

What I mean is that Boullier does not want to give real numbers rather that he does not know what they are. All teams have good idea about these numbers but not the exact numbers. To think that Boullier will give them is to say that he will publicly disclose internal information. About the advantage in strategies and planning: if you know the real capabilities of your competitor you can judge what kind of settings he is planning to use for each circuit, and then you can make your strategy in a way that is favorable to you. If these exact numbers were not so important each team will advertise them publicly. Strange but even Mercedes don't do this.

All client teams have higher DTL (this is the reason Ron Denis to sign with Honda) which makes impossible Mac to be 0.5 sec faster than Mercedes. Honda gives Mac opportunity to have lower DTL, lower car frontal area, better mechanical balance, and better downforce settings for each circuit. The only thing that is missing is the power of PU itself. I guess that this is matter of time when the power will be available.

[GoranF1]

i agree that he didnt said rear numbers because Mclaren is still chasing title sponsor...real number is as BBC reported around 150hp

This is up to you what to believe - media rumors or math calculations. The calculator that I posted is using "hard proven" information (length of straight, corner exit speed, speed trap), various internet sources (F1 car frontal area, F1 CDA, DTL) that have reasonable small margin of error, and what remains is the power. 120 hp difference simply can not match what we know for CDA and car frontal area of F1 cars. Also, as I said this calculation perfectly matches what Button says about 0.3 sec loss on the straight.

lol....0.3 to what Honda PU can produce,not 0.3 to Mercedes!

[GoranF1]

J.yank

Bassiscaly if your logic was right( which is clearly not)and Honda is 80Bhp down on Mercedes and that is a deficit of only 0.3,that would mean the rest of the gap to Merc of around 1.7 seconds is all down to chassis(which is clearly not)
https://twitter.com/SportmphMark/status ... 7472533504

[j.yank]

lol....0.3 to what Honda PU can produce,not 0.3 to Mercedes!

Read carefully what I said - 80 hp difference is giving 0.3 sec loss on the straight. It doesn't matter whether they are to what Honda PU can produce or what Mercedes can produce. You can make the calculation, too.