Red Bull RB11 Renault

[skoop]

And it gets worse..

Renault postpones new engine to Austin:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... -to-austin

"What we see on the dyno will be on track, for sure. Whether it's going to be a big step, or a big enough step, I don't know."

Doesn't sound too encouraging.

better to keep the expectations down and not to do a honda. i would do the same thing

[Blackout]

RIC says in AMuS that some debris have been aspirated by the engine in FP3 and that destroyed the V6...
Difficult to me to imagine how derbis or compressor debris can get though the intercooler and damage the engine...

[wesley123]

RIC says in AMuS that some debris have been aspirated by the engine in FP3 and that destroyed the V6...
Difficult to me to imagine how derbis or compressor debris can get though the intercooler and damage the engine...

The debris destroys the turbine, all that extra debris will seriously damage the insides and then clog up the intercooler. Seeing how these engines are ran with a turbo in mind that'll do the rest.

[timbo]

RIC says in AMuS that some debris have been aspirated by the engine in FP3 and that destroyed the V6...
Difficult to me to imagine how derbis or compressor debris can get though the intercooler and damage the engine...

The debris destroys the turbine, all that extra debris will seriously damage the insides and then clog up the intercooler. Seeing how these engines are ran with a turbo in mind that'll do the rest.

Are they not using a filter?

[PlatinumZealot]

I'm not entirely sure, but I have the impression that Red Bull has made a silent evolution on the upper flaps:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN_dQt4WIAAr9Mp.jpg
I'm looking through the images and it's hard to point at a grand prix "that's where they introduced this", but going back a few grand prix' you can definitely tell the Merc-alike curves in the upper flaps are much more pronounced now.

yeah very Mercedes like now. Very Mercedes like.

[condor]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/marko ... ll-engines

This is specifically why Mercedes were correct in deciding not to supply Red Bull with their engines. Red Bull, while being a fantastically technically competent racing team, are toxic in nature largely as a result of the attitudes of Marko, Horner and to a lesser extent Newey.

Renault were a critically important complement to Red Bull's chassis' prowess in the 4 years of domination from 2010 to 2013. The combination of Newey's exhaust blown diffuser related designs together with the Renault engines off-throttle characteristics (developed specifically to suit Newey's goals) and the packaging characteristics of the engine were the reason behind that success.

Yet even during those years of winning, not only did Renault get little thanks and credit for contributing to their success, Horner actually criticised the engine's lack of power continuously. Come the turbo owner, where Renault have actually failed, they got well and truly thrown under the bus. Red Bull publicly slated Renault right from the beginning.

So what's in it for an engine manufacturer to supply Red Bull? If Red Bull wins with a Mercedes engine, then Red Bull will claim how great they are that they can beat the works team. If they don't beat Mercedes, it will be publicly claimed that they are not getting equal engines.

For Red Bull, it's always somebody elses fault. When regulations controlled the exhaust blowing Newey, Horner and Marko were claiming that innovation was being targetted. Contrast this with McLaren who accepted it when the F-duct was banned. When other teams complained about Red Bull's flexi wings, again they were being victimised because of their success.

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks. It's obvious why he thinks it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Because in Marko's mind, it would mean that Red Bull overcame an engine deficit and beat Mercedes because of Red Bull's vastly superior chassis. Marko's wish of unpleasantness on Mercedes isn't one of Red Bull showing Mercedes they could get an engine on par or superior to Mercedes but rather that they can once again show Mercedes how great Red Bull is.

But the reality is that it would not be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Supplying Red Bull would be a lose lose situation for Mercedes. Even getting Ferrari engines is, according to Marko, only a "first step to getting a competitive engine in the future" and he's already thinking about a potential change from a Ferrari engine. For Red Bull, it's not about forming partnerships for the mutual benefit of all stakeholders but rather a supplier is a mere vehicle to assist Red Bull's ambitions and to be used and discarded as they see fit, whilst all the time claiming the kudos. Red Bull is a toxic partner. They are, if you will, like the stereotypical boss from hell who claims all of his employees' success while blaming his employees for failures.

[ME4ME]

I respect your opinion, but please let me add some counter arguments:

Yet even during those years of winning, not only did Renault get little thanks and credit for contributing to their success.

Vettel mentioned Renault many times on the podium. I guess nobody cared at the time.

Horner actually criticised the engine's lack of power continuously.

That is true. Were his statements incorrect? From what people say not. Although the Renault V8 had advantages, most say the Merc and Ferrari were slightly more powerful.

Come the turbo owner, where Renault have actually failed, they got well and truly thrown under the bus. Red Bull publicly slated Renault right from the beginning.

They got barely any laps in, last year in pre-season testing. Especially Vettel who basically was pushing the car more than he was driving it. Frustration spilled over quickly. Especially because they had been at the top for 4,5 years. Although maybe not excusable, it's understandable.

Even getting Ferrari engines is, according to Marko, only a "first step to getting a competitive engine in the future" and he's already thinking about a potential change from a Ferrari engine.

He could be talking about getting old PU's next year, if Ferrari doesn't want to supply them with 2016-spec PU's. It would indeed be first step. Don't read to much into it

[Blackout]

That is true. Were his statements incorrect? From what people say not. Although the Renault V8 had advantages, most say the Merc and Ferrari were slightly more powerful.

RBR BS... the V8 had a bit less peak power but a quick look on it's power curve; its position and its chape, showed it had at least as much effective power as the others. RBR and Renault engineers said this. Some other RBR people 'forgot' to mention this and 'forgot' to tell, for example, that those super twisted exhaust manifolds they used to blow the diffuser cost some power...
Don't trust RBR which is always keen to highlight its work and minimize the others.

[ME4ME]

You do realize you enforce your argument with "RBR said this" and than go on and say "RBR cannot be trusted"? See the irony?

Sorry just busting your chops
(downvote wasn't mine)

[Blackout]

I'm drawing a destinction between the engineers who build the car; the real soldiers*, and the bosses like Horner or Marko (I said RBR engineers and RBR people). In my post I mentionned the engineers first who are far more objective and less prone to do politics, PR etc...
*Just like soldiers, they do the real work but rarely have the ability to speak they're opinion...

[Hail22]

GP Singapore Thursday 17/09/2015:

[JDC123]

GP Singapore Thursday 17/09/2015:

http://img1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red ... 896665.jpg
http://img3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red ... 896666.jpg

I'm shocked that red bull ship their rear wings fully constructed. Flat packing it would be so much easier and cheaper to ship and would probably mean less likely to be damaged. Its not like its particularly difficult to construct in the garage.

[Thunder]

There are a lot of smart People at RedBull, i'm sure there is a good Reason for that.

[wesley123]

RIC says in AMuS that some debris have been aspirated by the engine in FP3 and that destroyed the V6...
Difficult to me to imagine how derbis or compressor debris can get though the intercooler and damage the engine...

The debris destroys the turbine, all that extra debris will seriously damage the insides and then clog up the intercooler. Seeing how these engines are ran with a turbo in mind that'll do the rest.

Are they not using a filter?

Oh yes that's a thing they all use

[RicME85]

There are a lot of smart People at RedBull, i'm sure there is a good Reason for that.

Just because your smart doesnt mean you have common sense