New 2015 fuel flow Directive

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
R_GoWin
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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gruntguru wrote:I just had another thought. Reducing the pressure in the lines will cause lighter components of the fuel to vaporise if the pressure is reduced below the vapor pressure of that component. This would potentially allow ALL THE FUEL between the flow meter and the pump at the engine to be used for a short term power boost.
gruntguru wrote:If the scam involves reducing pressure to produce a vapor bubble, you restrict the flow through the flow meter to 100 kg/hr eg with a fixed displacement pump or throttling valve immediately after the flow meter. The lift pump at the engine would need to be capable of pulling fuel from the supply line at less than atmospheric pressure. The vapor would need to have a "high point" in the lines to accumulate so the pump does not see vapor at its inlet. The "high point" would be in a hotter section of the fuel lines (a "fuel heater" probably) to ensure vapor bubbles do not form elsewhere in the lines.
gruntguru wrote:If the scam uses a vapor bubble, it would be acchived by having LOW pressure in the lines (or more likely the fuel heater). For extra power, the fuel pressure is reduced causing a vapor bubble in the fuel heater and allowing the liquid fuel to be drawn out of the heater in addition to the 100 kg/hr coming from the tank.
Sorry to prick your bubble - but this is all just so wrong!

Firstly - if you "reduce the pressure in the lines" - you simply inject fuel at low pressure (there is no vaporisation here). So for a given number of holes and nozzle diameter at the injector - you simply have a lesser pressure gradient driving the fuel and hence would need to increase your injection duration to even achieve similar power levels (let alone poorer fuel atomisation)

Secondly - the vapour bubbles you talk about - this is cavitation. If you have a 500 bar fuel pump, and fuel moves through the pipes to the injector - the stagnation pressure in the pipes is 500 bar throughout. You do not need to reduce this to cause vapour bubbles (or pump less than atmospheric like you said). Theoretically speaking - even if the fuel is accelerated so much as the fuel pipes twist and bend to the reach the injectors (narrower cross section - mass is conserved, accelerating the fluid. This increases dynamic pressure at the cost of static) you eventually reach a threshold point where the local static pressure goes less than vapour pressure at the bends causing cavitation bubbles (at those local areas of the bend). But static pressure will recover after the bend. By no means will you have a large scale vaporisation of a whole column of fuel in the delivery pipes due to this. And realistically speaking, I'm not even sure how probable it is for cavitation to happen in the bends and twisty section of fuel pipes - as the flow in these pipes are pulsed, according to your cylinder firing. So at some point all of the pressure in the pipe is static and well above vapour pressure. That's why you have a pressure relief valve and a return oversupply loop in the fuel system to go back to the tank. (This opens to discussion if the teams play with the oversupply loop and short circuit it after the FIA approved flow meter location)

Thirdly - cavitation is bad. You do not want cavitation to occur in your fuel system. Yes, it’s unavoidable to some extent inside the injector, and you get some dubious benefits during the primary breakup mechanism, but these bubbles have a habit of imploding upon themselves - sending shock waves through the liquid and severely damaging metal, corroding them. And even if they manage to agglomerate and grow, rather than burst and get through the injector - it causes poor fuel delivery, introduces uncertainties in combustion and potentially unbalanced cylinder pressures in the engine.
The presence of large scale vortices (relative to nozzle diameter) have known to create cavitation in the bulk of the fluid without any geometric means (like bends) but this is erratic and a very poorly understood phenomena, let alone exploit it to gain benefit. And we are still talking about two phase flow here - and not a complete vaporisation of fuel column.

Fourthly - if you "potentially allow ALL THE FUEL between the flow meter and the pump" to evaporate a choice has to be made during hardware selection if one is going to use spray injectors or gas injectors. (Not sure if possible - the injectors have to be FIA approved) The nozzle diameters, injector capacity are different between the two (because energy density for a given injection volume is different between liquid fuel and gaseous fuel - you need to pump more gas to achieve similar power levels as liquid) that you cannot have one doing the job for the other - and a compromise would result in a mediocre combustion system.

gruntguru
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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R_GoWin wrote:Sorry to prick your bubble - but this is all just so wrong!
Newbies should do lots of reading and thoroughly research a forum before they start posting. Once they start posting, it is a good idea to politely make a suggestion here and there before jumping in with both guns blazing.
Firstly - if you "reduce the pressure in the lines" - you simply inject fuel at low pressure (there is no vaporisation here).
No. You reduce pressure in the lines between the tank and the high pressure pump(s) which is at the engine. The high pressure pump raises the pressure to 500bar for injection.
Secondly - the vapour bubbles you talk about - this is cavitation. If you have a 500 bar fuel pump, and fuel moves through the pipes to the injector - the stagnation pressure in the pipes is 500 bar throughout. You do not need to reduce this to cause vapour bubbles (or pump less than atmospheric like you said).
Again - we are not talking about this section of the system.

Nor are we talking about cavitation. If a fuel heater is full of fuel and the pressure is reduced below the vapor pressure of the heated fuel, a vapor bubble will form in the heater. When doing this, it would be a good idea to have a "cooler" region at the bottom of the heater vessel, and draw liquid fuel from here.
Fourthly - if you "potentially allow ALL THE FUEL between the flow meter and the pump" to evaporate a choice has to be made during hardware selection if one is going to use spray injectors or gas injectors.
No. I said "potentially" to indicate this is the limit to how much fuel could be evaporated. To go beyond this limit would involve feeding vapor to the HP pump which is clearly unacceptable.
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BTS
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Hi
Being a bit naive, could you have the fuel being picked up by the hight pressure fuel pump on its way back to the tank?

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dren
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Wouldn't you have less fuel in the lines if it was vapor, than if it was a liquid? Wouldn't it just be easier to stop flow just past the metering device and accelerate the flow of all the liquid in the lines to the ICE for a short period of time? You would have to know when to do this so that it is right before a lift or braking event so the line could refill.

Either way, that would be immediately noticed by the FIA, and it is explicitly prohibited by the regulations.

Mercedes just produced a more efficient PU than everyone else. I don't think it was through rule trickery.

Plus, all of these additional pumps, heaters and coolers require additional space and or power. Then there is the added weight.
Honda!

gruntguru
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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All the components I have mentioned are either already on the cars or have a valid reason (other than cheating) to be there.

Yes, if part of the system is filled with vapour, there is less fuel present - because the engine has used the liquid fuel that used to be there - without the flowmeter noticing the increased flow rate.
je suis charlie

R_GoWin
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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dans79 wrote:What does everyone make of this?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118066

Seems to me, the FIA must think or strongly suspect a team is breaking/bending the rules. Personally I can't fathom how a team could achieve a higher pressure/flow rate with out using something blatantly illegal like an accumulator or a secondary pump.
Its not clear how many sensors and what types of them are there on the fuel system - this article gives the impression that its only the FIA homologated flow meter.

However technical regulation 5.10.3 - talks about pressure sensors among others which should already be there in principle. So maybe this directive is more a stronger implementation of that regulation and enforce on teams and not because the FIA suspects a dodgy practice?

"5.10.3 - Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger."

gruntguru
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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The injection pressure is limited by the rules. That's why the FIA mandate a sensor there. The new directive is not asking for duplication of this sensor. As to flow measurement, the FIA has until now accepted that the flow measured by the mandatory sensor at the tank is measuring flow at the injectors.

The fact they are now asking for extra pressure sensors in the low pressure lines between the flow meter and the HP pump, means thay have recognised that the volume in between can be cycled up and down by varying the pressure - even without the presence of a deliberate (and illegal) "accumulator" in this section.
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wuzak
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Jolle wrote:
dans79 wrote:
Jolle wrote:They don't say anything about right after.
they do!
technical regulations 5.10.5

Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow
rate after the measurement point is prohibited.
Well, the regs also say, all bodywork (except drs) should be rigid. It's really that's it's now allowed its bending rules with how it's measured.
Of course it is physically impossible for the bodywork to be truly rigid. That's why the FIA have introduced deflection tests over the years, and made them more severe. Article 3.17 sets out the tests for bodywork flexibility.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible to make the fuel system such that it never exceeds the maximum fuel flow limit.

And the 100kg/h sets an upper limit for flow rate - there is no lower limit.

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godlameroso
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Do F1 cars have a vapor canister system like normal road cars? A team could just design a vapor canister system that can store gas and feed it as vapor into the intake, any gas that condenses goes back into the main fuel tank. Perhaps the variable trumpets are needed to make this work because the canister accumulates vapors at part throttle.
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R_Redding
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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I think the FIA has discovered that the high pressure pump may be a similar working concept to the 20MPa or 200Bar consumer GDI pumps.. They (Bosch certainly) have a bellows type attenuator/regulator at the first stage inlet ( No1..in the circular top of the pic below).
The bellows is there to ensure a smooth consistent flow to the delivery plunger, and it could help to hold an extra amount of fuel to work.

Image
Image
Last edited by R_Redding on 23 Mar 2015, 12:57, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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That's nothing but a pulsation damper.
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gruntguru
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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Fuel pulsation damper = fuel accumulator.
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Harsha
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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gruntguru wrote:Fuel pulsation damper = fuel accumulator.
I feel this is getting nasty wonder what performance difference it will make once this is fixed

R_Redding
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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godlameroso wrote:That's nothing but a pulsation damper.
This is from the Bosch Automotive handbook 9th edition..

Image

Mikey_s
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Re: New 2015 fuel flow Directive

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This is an interesting thread, I love the ingenuity applied to possible loopholes. I was thinking about how to circumvent the rules if there's a limit to the maximum pressure permitted... How about fuel pipes that could collapse and empty without cavitation, but would permit all of the fuel in the line to be used at periods of high demand?
Last edited by Mikey_s on 23 Mar 2015, 14:32, edited 1 time in total.
Mike