Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:A car with only ground effects. No wings. Just body. How much dirty air this car creates and how sensitive is this type of car to following another?
Did you read the Paddy Lowe article referenced earlier? He states that this is not good for following cars.
No. Actually just read it.
"Some very interesting results came out of it and many of them were not intuitive as well. The paddock is full of amateur aerodynamicists, amateur overtaking experts and car wake experts, and actually when you get into the experimentation you find that things were not actually as you expected."

Both then and now the "amateur overtaking experts" called for the underside of the car to be exploited for aerodynamic advantage through the use of ground effects. But the work of the OWG suggested that would be a retrograde step.

"The brief going into the project was that you wanted it all in the floor, all ground effects, and take the wings off the car -- even now everybody says that," Lowe explains. "A lot of the pieces tried were around those themes and we also had the Central Downwash Wing [a concept to split the rear wing into two sections].

"The first interesting thing that came out was that the Central Downwash Wing actually acted negatively on the following car and made it worse, but not far off that was having no rear wing at all. The best thing was to have a rear wing as we did, but refine it by having it narrower and higher. The reason is that the flow structures and the two vortices at the top of the two endplates are very strong energisers of fresh flow to re-energise the wake, whereas if you have no rear wing you end up with a very messy wake that hangs around. These two vortices bring in fresh air from the sides and dispel the low energy wake that's there. So actually you need a strong rear wing and, adjusting a few parameters, you can make it even more effective. That was unexpected.

"The second point is to work on the front wing of the following car because it is the first part of the car to see the replenished wake. We found that an important aspect is to have a disabled centre section of the front wing, so that it is working just off the outboard ends low down. Those were the two major findings."
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rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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And these findings were used as basis for the amazing rule set we have now.

It's clear as day light that Lowe is spot on since everything is fine and no one complains about passing any longer.

NOT

Spin doctor, just like Pat Symmonds.

miqi23
miqi23
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Isn't it amazing that once you get to a senior level in any occupation people do not question you and you can get away with pretty much any bullshit! F1 is no different and if you know your discipline properly you can tell that these "so called" experts are spinning things one after another. I just do not know what it is but generally it is the bullshitters who make it to the top of the management chain pretty much everywhere and it does not take long before their incompetency shows.

As I always say it, its not what you know its what people think you know. Once you are at a senior level like the above characters rjsa mentioned people just believe you without questioning you.

bhall II
bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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It actually makes sense.

Image

Without the upwash generated by the rear wing, underbody air flow, which is highly turbulent due to the inefficiency of the diffusers, would more or less stay at ground level, presenting trailing cars with nothing but turbulence.

Because of the rear wing, that turbulent flow is pulled up, which results in an inward "sidewash" effect as cleaner air flow from the freestream on both sides of the car is drawn into the low-pressure zone vacated by the upwash, presenting any trailing cars with that much less turbulence.

You have to think about it in relative terms: it's better, but that doesn't mean it's good.

rjsa
rjsa
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Betrt is goid. Always. Meu not be perfect, but is good.

Anyway I just don't get denying reality with supposed scale wind tunnel testing.

Every respectable racing series and their uncles rely heavily on underbody aero cars that can pass. But the wizards from F1 say it's a bad idea so let's keep the skewed difusers, the pole vault rear wing, the snow plower front wing and the rubish gimmicks going on.

miqi23
miqi23
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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bhall II wrote:It actually makes sense.

Image

Without the upwash generated by the rear wing, underbody air flow, which is highly turbulent due to the inefficiency of the diffusers, would more or less stay at ground level, presenting trailing cars with nothing but turbulence.

Because of the rear wing, that turbulent flow is pulled up, which results in an inward "sidewash" effect as cleaner air flow from the freestream on both sides of the car is drawn into the low-pressure zone vacated by the upwash, presenting any trailing cars with that much less turbulence.

You have to think about it in relative terms: it's better, but that doesn't mean it's good.
Bhall, you seem to be missing the whole picture here. That side wash you are refering to is actually called an 'inwash' and it is proportional to 'upwash'. Now, here the problem, you cannot just say inwash is better while ignoring the upwash. Upwash is bad for the following car, all that inwash that you get as a result of the wing tip vortices ends up going upwards due to the upwash. The following car sees cleaner air, yes, but at the wrong angle of attack making every thing work less on the following car. Thats why it does not work.

You should reduce upwash through the use of smaller less cambered wing which would still have an inwash component and results are better than the current situation we have in F1.

miqi23
miqi23
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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rjsa wrote:Betrt is goid. Always. Meu not be perfect, but is good.

Anyway I just don't get denying reality with supposed scale wind tunnel testing.

Every respectable racing series and their uncles rely heavily on underbody aero cars that can pass. But the wizards from F1 say it's a bad idea so let's keep the skewed difusers, the pole vault rear wing, the snow plower front wing and the rubish gimmicks going on.
Rjsa, underbody aero has its potential but is it the answer to everything, I would say no.

It improves things by a lot and may be that extra improvement we get is enough for better racing?

I keep wondering, if we fix the balance shift issue on current cars would that be enough to improve overtaking while keeping the downforce loss while following another car?

Underbody aero tend to improve the balance problem but it still loses downforce while following another car. Perhaps balance shift is the bigger culprit here?

bhall II
bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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miqi23 wrote:Bhall, you seem to be missing the whole picture here. That side wash you are refering to is actually called an 'inwash' and it is proportional to 'upwash'. Now, here the problem, you cannot just say inwash is better while ignoring the upwash. Upwash is bad for the following car, all that inwash that you get as a result of the wing tip vortices ends up going upwards due to the upwash. The following car sees cleaner air, yes, but at the wrong angle of attack making every thing work less on the following car. Thats why it does not work.
You more or less just restated my comment, but with different words.
Without the upwash generated by the rear wing, underbody air flow, which is highly turbulent due to the inefficiency of the diffusers, would more or less stay at ground level, presenting trailing cars with nothing but turbulence.

Because of the rear wing, that turbulent flow is pulled up, which results in an inward "sidewash" effect as cleaner air flow from the freestream on both sides of the car is drawn into the low-pressure zone vacated by the upwash, presenting any trailing cars with that much less turbulence.

You have to think about it in relative terms: it's better, but that doesn't mean it's good.

(I usually call it infill.)

How I read Lowe's statement...
[All else being equal] the Central Downwash Wing actually acted negatively on the following car and made it worse, but not far off that was having no rear wing at all.
miqi23 wrote:You should reduce upwash through the use of smaller less cambered wing which would still have an inwash component and results are better than the current situation we have in F1.
Like this? (I'm not taking a position here one way or the other, just adding a touch of color to the gray areas.)

Image

Image

Image

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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rjsa wrote:And these findings were used as basis for the amazing rule set we have now.

It's clear as day light that Lowe is spot on since everything is fine and no one complains about passing any longer.

NOT

Spin doctor, just like Pat Symmonds.
You've missed the key issue in the article - that the cars need to have a lot less downforce, half as much, in order to run closely. That, coupled with the front wing designed to only work the outer sections of the wing, would have made a big difference. The problem is that, quite naturally, the teams have found lots of downforce (they are at almost the highest level they've ever been) and the teams make the centre section of the wing produce downforce. In effect they have out-developed the changes. Indeed, one of the cars that has shown problems running close to other cars is the Mercedes. It's the quickest car on the grid and will thus have amongst the most downforce. Mercedes also work their front wing very hard.

People say things like "other series can overtake just fine" whilst missing the big issue - other series don't have nearly the downforce that an F1 car produces. Sure, LMP1 is up there but they are very different cars with their own set of issues.

The only way F1 will get lots of overtaking, should such a thing be desired, is to have a defined aerodynamic package i.e. spec downforce. That way the FIA can mandate and control the level of downforce. It will make the cars several seconds a lap slower though.

Of course, one other reason that other series have lots of overtaking - they have a much broader spread of driver abilities. Even the guys at the back in F1 have a high level of ability - we're talking about drivers being within a second of each other if they were in the same car.

What makes overtaking possible in a spec series? It's drivers making mistakes on the most part. The guys who make less mistakes tend to win. In a high downforce series such as F1 where the drivers are all pretty decent you don't get the same mistakes that leave doors open for the guy behind. That the cars have to be driven to a percentage of their total performance in order to save fuel, tyres and major components, doesn't help either because that makes driver errors even less likely.

In one way, the recent qualifying changes had one thing correct - they were trying to force the teams and drivers to make mistakes by placing them under pressure. That way they would lose places on the grid just as a driver making a mistake on track loses places.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

rjsa
rjsa
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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No I didn't, cut it in half, add tunels, curb wing design, just fix it, it's just not working like this.

Image

miqi23
miqi23
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Bhall, if you think the current inwash and upwash is better but not good then I am sorry to say that you are mistaken.

Do you not know that the loss of downforce and balance is still similar to 2008 cars? How can you call that better when nothing has changed at all? And guess what, the current cars produce a lot less downforce compared to 2008 cars and we still have overtaking issues! How reducing downforce would improve overtaking I dont know because the current cars do have a lot less downforce compared to 2008 cars. I also do not buy this that teams have found a way to match downforce levels similar to 2008 and before because its not true.

High downforce is not the issue here, its how you produce that downforce that is the problem.

bhall II
bhall II
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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miqi23 wrote:Bhall, if you think the current inwash and upwash is better but not good then I am sorry to say that you are mistaken.
If you think I've drawn any sort of broad conclusions like that, you're sorely mistaken.

In context, and as I read it, Lowe's statement makes sense for the reasons I've described. The end. To infer I've said anything beyond that is to compose a work of fiction.
"The brief going into the project was that you wanted it all in the floor, all ground effects, and take the wings off the car -- even now everybody says that," Lowe explains. "A lot of the pieces tried were around those themes and we also had the Central Downwash Wing [a concept to split the rear wing into two sections].

"The first interesting thing that came out was that [all else being equal] the Central Downwash Wing actually acted negatively on the following car and made it worse, but not far off that was having no rear wing at all.
You might be surprised to learn that I don't think there's much more than an incidental relationship between "dirty air" and overtaking.

The issue with the Overtaking Working Group is not the science of the solutions it produced; it's the fact that no one involved even attempted to empirically ascertain the true nature of the problem. Instead, everyone just assumed that "dirty air" was the culprit, which means the Overtaking Working Group was really the Wake Turbulence Working Group, and they went to great lengths to solve a problem that's only tangentially related to overtaking...
grandprix.com, Oct 1, 2008 wrote:[...]

The Technical Working Group met to discuss the question [of overtaking] that autumn. All the teams sent technical directors, seniors engineer and aerodynamicists. There were thus 25 opinions to be heard (as Prodrive was still planning to enter F1 at that point and Super Aguri was still in business). The meeting was chaired by Charlie Whiting and after hours of different opinions he decided that it was a pointless exercise. He concluded that the only way forward was to create a sub-group and allow only the top three teams to be represented. Ferrari, Renault and McLaren were each invited to nominate a representative. Thus was born the Overtaking Working Group (OWG).

Pat Symonds of Renault, Rory Byrne of Ferrari and Paddy Lowe of McLaren were all well-established engineers of repute and all were keen to get the job done using commonsense and a scientific approach. The OWG met for the first time in January 2007. They cut straight to the chase. They defined the downforce targets they were looking to achieve and the character of the aerodynamics that was required to improve overtaking. Whiting provided data which had been averaged out from information he had been given by all the teams. The aim was make the cars five seconds a lap slower, but they had to factor in other progress and the reintroduction of slick tyres, planned for 2009. This meant that the OWG was looking for very significant changes. The conclusion was that they needed to reduce downforce by 50 per cent while retaining similar drag coefficients to the 2006 car.

The first move was to use McLaren's highly advanced simulator to establish baseline aerodynamic performance parameters. McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa was called in to 'drive' the simulator and after recording a series of different laps with different settings it was determined that in order to overtake going into Turn 1 [at Barcelona] he would need to have a car that was two seconds a lap quicker than the one in front. The engineers paid great attention to de la Rosa's comments. He would try each configuration and report on whether the resulting set-up would allow him to attempt to pass or not. Halving the downforce meant that the necessary 'overtaking advantage' figure could be reduced to 1.5s a lap and the work then moved on to finding ways to balance the following car to reduce the necessary 'overtaking advantage' to a second. The three engineers all agreed that this was a realistic figure, rather than trying to make it even easier to overtake.

At the same time that this was going on Symonds was sent off to talk money out of Renault team principal Flavio Briatore and the other 11 team bosses. The result was a budget of half a million Euros. The trio had agreed that they should use Fondtech to do windtunnel work for them and that they did not want to place too much faith in CFD. It was an interesting technology but it was not ready for this kind of work as it was not possible to use CFD to study unstable behaviour of the air behind a car. The McLaren simulator, which represented 30man/years of development proved a far more flexible tool than other simulations and used a real driver (Pedro) to get a subjective view.

Once they had established the basic data and the targets required, the OWG asked Fondtech to devise means by which the desired changes might be achieved. Ferrari provided baseline data for the two models that Fondtech ran in tandem in its 25 per cent moving ground wind tunnel. They in turn had drawn on an experiment by Ferrari at Monza in 2004, when it ran two cars in tandem round the autodromo. This full-scale Ferrari data was used to validate the twin model behaviour in the tunnel, in turn to validate the entire experimental technique. This was a very important step, that justified the use of tunnel rather than CFD.

Between March and September 2007 there were several sessions in the wind tunnel, with Byrne doing much of the hands-on work and all sorts of ideas were investigated. The final configuration pretty much hit its targets though baseline drag fell by 10 per cent.

The next step was to feed the actual data back into the McLaren simulator in order to compare it with the baseline model that had been established. De la Rosa confirmed the benefits in terms of improved chances to overtake. The OWG made its presentations to the TWG in October 2007 and the teams agreed to accept them.

What was interesting was that by using a scientific approach to the problem it became clear that previous attempts to solve the problem had in reality made things worse.

"Almost all of the attempts to reduce downforce in the recent past have been retrograde in terms of overtaking possibilities and wake behaviour," one member of the OWG said. "If we had wanted to make overtaking chances worse, that was what we would have come up with."

One of the most significant findings was that the rear wing is a very important device in characterising the wake that a car generates.

"You would think that upwash from the rear wing is bad," Lowe said. "The upwash is strong, but a very strong inwash at ground level is also driven by the rear wing. That inwash brings new high-energy air in at ground level. If you took the rear wing off altogether you would lose that effect and the wake would be a lot worse."

The OWG found that a 75 per cent narrower and 150 mm higher rear wing would optimise the new air.

Nick Wirth's computational fluid dynamics (CFD)-generated rear wing had eliminated the central section altogether, effectively comprising instead two separate rear wings, to eliminate the upwash, but the OWG concluded that this was the very reason that it did not work.

Having determined the best possible rear wing configuration to generate the least damaging wake, the OWG moved on to determine the optimum front wing and floor for the following car. Lots of different floor shapes were tried, including underbody tunnels and other radical ideas, but the OWG found that the best solution was similar to that on the current cars, but with the diffuser section mounted further back to use more of the benefit of the inwash.

The front wing will thus be lowered and, at 1800 mm, will be 400 mm wider than on the 2008 car. The most important point, however, is that the aerodynamic profile of the central section of the front wing will be fixed so that it remains neutral and does not generate downforce. This is because the central section of the wing is the most badly affected by the central upwash of the wake, and is the last part of the wing to receive the fresh high-energy air from the ground level inwash. By disabling this section, this effect is eliminated. Conversely, the wider outboard and lower extremities of the new front wings benefit more from the high-energy inwash air. This all helps to maintain the downforce and thus to manage the following car's balance better while it is running in a wake of the car in front.

[...]
The result speaks for itself.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Dirty air will always be a problem because any car making use of air to create DF, is actually disturbing air, so next car will always find turbulent air and it will always create less DF than the car in front, harming overtaking as the trailing car has a big handicap compared to the car in front

I don´t think you can solve this while cars use aero.... if they use same aero but, what if the trailing car can modify its aero to create more DF and, more or less, compensate the drop in DF due to dirty air?

Instead of the absurd DRS that try to compensate one disadvantage (dirty air) with a different disadvantage (less drag and higher top speed), if you manage to increase DF in dirty air, you´d be compensating for the problematic disadvantage, and that would be a lot more fair and also will ease overtaking


Not sure how to do it exactly, but there are some hundred technologies banned in F1 to limit DF, so it would only require to remove the ban from some of them to use it only when in dirty air.

Active suspensions to move the car down, movable front wing to move it down, a small fan, active wings similar to those in 2009 but more developed (moving the whole wing and/or limiting some aspects of the wing to make higher AoA posible without stalling), active skirts.... anything wich will increase DF when in dirty air.



To me once you assume dirty air will always exist, it sounds a lot more logical to minimize current problem (drop in DF when in dirty air), than creating a new one trying to compensate (DRS)

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Perhaps it's worth reposting this graphic:
Image
It comes from this document:
http://raikkonen.ru/2011_Chassis_Regulations.htm
The document has a lot of ideas in it that appear to have disappeared in to the fog surrounding F1.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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turbof1
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Re: Dirty air sensitivity and regulations

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Andres125sx wrote:Dirty air will always be a problem because any car making use of air to create DF, is actually disturbing air, so next car will always find turbulent air and it will always create less DF than the car in front, harming overtaking as the trailing car has a big handicap compared to the car in front
Yes, but like Bhall tries to point out is that everybody assumes this without trying to understand why. Have a look at ground effect cars from the 80's: everybody is pointing, including myself in the past, that they were more easy to follow due the downforce being produced by the floor, which supposely creates less turbulent air.

Which is wrong in actuality. It was not the ground effect itself that caused these cars to follow eachother close. Take a look at this picture:
Image
And now take Paddy Lowe's comments, which do make sense. A large rear wing close to the diffuser, yet with a low camber, combined with the absence of a front wing. If you remove the rear wing and include a current grade front wing, you'll have massive issue's with overtaking, where the turbulent flow coming out of the diffuser is not upwashing enough and is going over the front wing of the trailling car.

In my eyes, it's a story of managing turbulent airflow vs. reducing turbulent airflow.
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