Cheating...

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manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I really don't see why FIA was considerate and let Ferrari and other “flexing” teams go unpunished (ok, ok I now why they let Ferrari :wink: ).

Seriously, flexible wings haven’t appeared in 2006 and therefore having them in 2006 once again is nothing but an attempt of cheating because there has been a lot of talk about it years ago when Ferrari (surprisingly) started using them. That was followed by introduction of new regulations etc. In 2002 during Spanish GP Kimi had one huge crash when rear wing on his Mclaren flexed too much and broke off exposing him to serious danger…

That is why agree with Dave about hypocrite approach to driver's safety from certain teams especially since 2 out of 3 teams using flexible wings in first 2 races of 2006 season where the same ones who have been using such wings years ago but regardless on that they ignored rules and negative experience with driver's safety once again.

For me that is just one more reason to qualify that as cheating.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/8
…Article 3.17 has been introduced during 1998, after teams started experimenting with bending front and rear wings. When Ferrari introduced such a front wing at the end of 1997, it was produced in such a way that the wing would flex under aerodynamic loads. This means that as the speed increased, a force was produced that pushed the wing towards the ground. By means of a ground effect, this was particularly interesting for front wings because if would increase downforce at high speeds without an increase of drag. As rear wings began to fail and flew off during races, the FIA thought it was time to act and added 3.17 to the technical regulations of Formula One...

Question to those who say that Ferrari wasn't cheating and wasn't using illegal wings - Why have they changed both wings for Australian GP than if they don't fear detail technical inspection after announced official protest? Why change something that is legal and loose performance if all that's been said about their wing is just a rumour?

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
9
Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

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BTW, in regard to "safety" of the flexi-wing, I think you should seriously think about commercial airliner before you think about an F1 car. Plane wings flexes and moves up and down from aero loading and whatnot since forever, and engineers design them to do so, to their advantage to save fuel or increase performance. And thats with 4-500 people's lives on board. IMO, the debate right now is that utilizing it as such now for performance gain, within the boundary as specified in the rule, is acceptable or not. Safety I don't think has anything to do with that anymore.

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m3_lover
0
Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Interperation of the rules is always going to be a gray area, a lot of teams always look for loopholes and grey areas. I do not think Ferrari was cheating they just saw a loophole and took advantage of it as any other team wuold be.

A great example of cheating would be Toyota motorsports in WRC in the 90's where they got cheating with there turbo system and hid it so well, that the FIA only found out when a disgrunted toyota engineering told FIA abuot it and Max Mosley has said it was the greated innovation of cheating that he ever saw because the FIA couldn't find it with there normal checks for cheating.
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Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Now, now Manchild... I did say I didn't want to start finger pointing! But as you have... I suspect Ferrari have changed as a pragmatic solution - as I mentioned in the wing flexing thread (can't remember which one..) this is a practical solution; For the FIA to change the rules takes time, and helps no-one because it gets all messy. The most approriate way to deal with an 'over-interpretation' of the rules is precisely what has happened; Charlie boy has told the teams that he would like to see a revised wing by this weekend... if the teams had called that bluff I think the FIA would have to have acted. Now they don't and all the teams know where they stand in respect of flexy wings...

but as Racing Maniac says (and I did!) the wings flex already - all of them - certainly on the trailing edge and almost certainly throughout the whole chord too, so what we are dealijng with is degrees of flex and where the line has to be drawn.

Now the thread has started to creep back to flexy wings and it should really be about where the rule book stops and cheating begins.

BTW, thanks to all so far for the input, I should have known there wouldn't be a straight answer!
Mike

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Interperation of the rules is always going to be a gray area, a lot of teams always look for loopholes and grey areas. I do not think Ferrari was cheating they just saw a loophole and took advantage of it as any other team wuold be.
I agree it a grey area and re:
For the FIA to change the rules takes time, and helps no-one because it gets all messy. The most approriate way to deal with an 'over-interpretation' of the rules is precisely what has happened; Charlie boy has told the teams that he would like to see a revised wing by this weekend... if the teams had called that bluff I think the FIA would have to have acted.
I think the FIA has got everybody jumping thru hoops because the teams will not unite and call the FIA's bluff. I think the current wing thing is cheating. I think this moreso because of what I persieve (I just cant spell) as an FIA bias. You can all scream "here we go again" but this is all about money and the FIA (bad cop) and FOM (good cop) will always bend over for Ferrari.....as is said "always follow the money". Like em or loath em, Ferrari bring in the bucks where F1 is concerned. Simple. Re- the michelin tyre issue; you need to ask why the FIA chose to rulle against michelin teams. If the teams had called the FIA's bluff then and said we will continue using this tyre. What could the FIA do....nothing really. But divided they all fell. The only reason the wing thing did not go Ferraris's way this time was because of the current focus on the GPMA/FIA/2008 & beyond thing etc. In short politics and the fact that it seems that there is unprecedented unity among the GPMA teams. I think the question we should be asking is; why are there so many grey areas, especially as these grey areas seem deliberate. I am not anti Ferrari but I am anti-unfairness.....unfairness mostly towards the fans. Sorry for the rant
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DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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RacingManiac wrote:BTW, in regard to "safety" of the flexi-wing, I think you should seriously think about commercial airliner before you think about an F1 car. Plane wings flexes and moves up and down from aero loading and whatnot since forever, and engineers design them to do so, to their advantage to save fuel or increase performance. And thats with 4-500 people's lives on board. IMO, the debate right now is that utilizing it as such now for performance gain, within the boundary as specified in the rule, is acceptable or not. Safety I don't think has anything to do with that anymore.
I respectfully disagree. Aircraft wings have redundant load paths, and their engineering, construction, and maintenance is designed for safety margins mandated by such agencies such as the FAA. The loads and forces they are subject to are carefully analysed in a manner well in excess of F1 technology.
In an F1 car, they are subject to varying and sometimes unpredictable loads (for instance, Kimi losing his right rear suspension during Bahrain qualifying) that can lead to unexpected failure. Basically, an F1 car takes a brutal beating.
The basic philosophy between airliners and racing cars are very far apart. Airliners are bult to multiple safety factors, while in F1, it's all risk/reward decisions, and always on the knife's edge.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Mikey_s wrote:Now, now Manchild... I did say I didn't want to start finger pointing! But as you have...
I pointed finger because in threads about Ferrari's flexible wings several posts considered that as great innovation and wisely discovered loophole while the truth is that they re-applied something that has already initiated creation of new regulations about flexing year and years ago. I tried to point out that they knew well what they were doing so I describe it as cheating rather than free interpretation of regs or loophole exploitation.

jaslfc
jaslfc
0
Joined: 19 Nov 2004, 13:47

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And now it seems with ferrari changing their wings for australian gp they seem to lose close to 1 sec of pace..

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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Basically the concept in F1 teams, or in racing in general is, if it isn’t checked it’s allowed. It becomes cheating IMO when it becomes “I know well it isn’t allowed and they verify you don’t do it, but they verify it so rarely that I consider the performance gain worth the risk”.

My take on a few cases.

The Michelin front tyres :
there is a rule defining maximum width of tread on front tyre at any point during the Event. It wasn’t specified it had to be new but FIA just used to measure it while new because it was more simple to clearly define the tread width.
Then it was discovered that some Michelin teams, it’s unclear if it was because of tyre design or of car setup, were de facto using more contact area than allowed. I don’t believe FIA ever measured the used tyre before so it was a grey area, FIA clarified the matter, but didn’t DQ the teams.
I agree with the decision because for me it isn’t clear cheating, it’s going on the limit, it passes the test you know FIA does, it wouldn’t pass a different test FIA could do if wanted, but never did, possibly simply because FIA never thought about. It’s not in the spirit in the rules but there’s a grey area in the letter. Close the loophole and move over.

Flexing wings :
FIA specifies, with accuracy, which kind of tests the wing will be subjected to. If a wing passes that test it’s legal. It’s obvious that everybody design the wings to pass the test, certainly not to be as rigid as possible. If there are complains, FIA can decide to make different tests, for example increase the testing load, but when that happens teams receive full details of the new tests and will modify the wings accordingly.
That is even less on the limit than the other one. It passes all the tests you are required to pass and you know they wouldn’t do a different test without first telling it. We can argue it’s not in the spirit of the rules, but it’s fully in the letter and that’s what matters.

An important thing to remember.
F1 is a relatively closed world with a limited number of participants. There are several discussions and several clarifications per year between FIA and these participants, most of these discussions we don’t even know about simply because we don’t need to know. All these clarifications are then de facto part of the rules because they define how you should read a given rule. The rules you download from FIA.com alone aren’t enough to know if a given thing is legal or not, because these don’t include all the clarifications hence don’t give you the whole picture, just an idea. They are good for example for bodywork basic dimensions, but you wont find in them what is possible or not possible to do in term of launch control, although you can bet that this is an area where several clarifications exist.

Example the BAR case last year. If you take a look at the rules from FIA website you can argue for days about the fact that it isn’t clearly specified for car to weight minimum 600 kg without fuel.
Still that’s the way it works because, several years ago the issue was clarified. When BAR case exploded I heard from an engineer working at Minardi in 1994 that that year, looking at refuelling times and car performances on the track, they noticed that something was wrong with Jordan cars, it looked like they were adding more fuel than needed at the refuelling, presumbably using part of it as ballast to go over the minimum weight at the end of the race. They complained and FIA clarified back then that that wasn’t possible and since then the car must be over the minimum weight, now 600 kg, when you remove all the fuel. Since 1994, although not frequently because it takes long, FIA does weigh cars without fuel. It doesn’t matter then if BAR lawyers wrote a long report in an attempt to demonstrate that they were always over the minimum during the race hence it wasn’t cheating but a different interpretation of rules.
The fact is that the car, without fuel, was under 600 kg, and FIA clarified long ago, and AFAIK confirmed several time, that that’s not how the rule is intended.
That’s typical case of cheating.
Another matter is that apparently there were at least 3 further teams doing the same but here we start to talk about politics and I prefer not to go in it. (anyway if you want some hints... AFAIK it was silver, yellow and Red... notice the capital R ;-))