2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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drunkf1fan
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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WaikeCU wrote:Reports were in that Mercedes were testing the '2016' engine this weekend. So from what I understand is that either:

- Mercedes used all of its tokens on an engine upgrade which they branded '2016' and tested on Friday?
- Mercedes raced with unchanged engines from earlier in the season.

or

- Mercedes tested a totally new '2016' engine on Friday
- Mercedes raced with engines that were upgraded with all of the tokens.


It's not a 2016 engine, it's a 2015 with the last tokens spent on the engine that aren't exactly for performance reasons but more as a basis for the 2016 engine.

As in, they have a plan for 2016 that requires 28 tokens but they only have 24 tokens(iirc) for next years upgrades. So they use the remaining points this year which can work on both years engines and provide the basis to use that 24 tokens next year and get the engine they want.

The plan was both cars would run the engine all weekend and they did for Hamilton but Rosberg's engine ran into trouble due to a coolant leak. Hopefully a complete rebuild and clean of Rosberg's engine will allow him to use it for the remaining races it was planned to do.

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djos
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2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Not the most exciting race but great recovery from Kimi and super effort from Ricciardo to storm thru to grab 8th from the back. Decent job by Kyvatt to grab 10th too.
"In downforce we trust"

f1316
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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GPR-A wrote:
f1316 wrote:Changing tack a bit, there seems to be a lot of speculation that Ferrari now have a qualifying mode - and the result seems to indicate that we're looking at something a bit like Mercedes pre Canada, I.e. Something that can't be used throughout the race.

Still, it takes on a bit more signifance somewhere like Singapore, the place where the field were anomalously close in qualifying last year. If - and it's a huge if - the 0.23 gap from monza can somehow turn into a pole in Singapore, you'd say it'll be very hard to make a pass anywhere other than the pits, even with better race pace.
Phil wrote:I agree, though I'm convinced Hamilton's engine wasn't turned up in Q3 for Monza as they usually do. As others have pointed out, his Q2 lap was quicker than the pole lap and I'm not sure it was because the track got significantly cooler. So perhaps the gap was closer than usual also because of that.
I have a different feeling about this. If you would have listened to Nico's radio from his engineer, it said, Vettel's tyres were gone before anyone's in first stint and they were sure it would be case with Mediums too and hence be prepared to attack Vettel at later stages and a P2 was possible. It was indeed the case and although Nico had clad mediums 7 laps earlier than Vettel, he was still able to close the gap. So my conclusion is, Ferrari probably went with very aggressive tyre setup to gain in qualifying. No doubt they have an improved PU, which is obvious compared to Spa, but the tyre situation is entirely different. Ferrari were supposed to have best tyre life situation, but here it was not. As for qualifying itself, I had provided the times from FP1 to Q3 and it was evident in the first 2 laps when Lewis opened a gap of 2.2 seconds. 1.5 seconds in one lap alone, before stabilizing and going half a second faster in subsequent laps.
http://s26.postimg.org/d9kve3iag/RACE_CHART.jpg
When Vettel pitted at lap 24, he was doing a 1:29.430 and Lewis was doing 1:28.122. So to me, the tyre setup was very aggressive on Ferraris.
http://s26.postimg.org/4sld36dll/RACE_CHART_2.png
Could well be. Perhaps a bit of hometown showboating and/or a thought that if they could get ahead at the start they could control the pace.

That said, the noises being made by Lauda and even Allison sounded like there was extra top speed involved too/instead. And either way, I expect that the natural order will bring cars closer in Singapore (brundle made a comment in Hungary about the Mercedes not being great over the bumps) so whatever the cause, it's a place where having a more quali orientated setup might be wise.

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Phil
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Schuttelberg wrote:Changeable conditions do have an element of luck, but also a lot of skill and intelligence. While Hamilton on all counts is a better driver than Rosberg, at Silverstone Rosberg was better, just like Hamilton at Monaco.
Great points Schuttelberg. Nothing really to add, except for two minor points. First of all, I wanted to clarify my comment about Rosbergs DNF now making things level; I really only meant it in a way that I do think Hamilton was robbed of that win at Monaco. To pit was utterly stupid (I was actually screaming at the tv screen when he went in to the pits), irregardless if it the decision was by the team, by Hamilton - whatever. He was so dominant, he could have stopped for an ice cream and still win the race. On the contrary, Rosberg was extremely lucky to be given that win and my only point was, that Rosberg gained 17 points that day and if Mercedes's race-strategist hadn't imploded, the point gap (assuming the other races would have turned out the same) would have been those 17 points larger already. Rosberg with his blown engine yesterday lost 15 points. So I think the point gap of 53 points right now is an accurate and fair representation of what the general standings between those two. I still feel gutted for Rosberg however. To give up the race 3 laps from the end is very hard, especially from such a good position.

My second point is on the changeable conditions. I agree with most of what you said, but I honestly think that sometimes we are giving way too much credit to the drivers, attributing more 'intelligence' to one than they realistically deserve. It goes the other way too; I feel most of the time, most drivers receive too much flak too. An easy example; if a driver attempts a gamble, like Hamilton did in Silverstone, fans are generally quick to praise that as a move of great intelligence or superb driving craft, perhaps even super natural feel for changing conditions. I don't buy it. Neither did I with Button, when he miraculously went onto slicks in wet conditions and pulled a win when he was way out of position (I forget which race that was, but it's brought up over and over again when people praise Buttons superb changeable condition skills). What people forget is; Button was out of position in that very race and he pitted for tires because he took a gamble. It was a bold move, only one would attempt who has little to lose. No front-runner in their right mind would have done that. Button was exactly in that position; All to gain, little to lose. He went against the flow, pitted for slicks in what seemed impossible conditions and guess what? He went off the track first corner. It could have been a DNF. Perhaps should have been. But he got back on the track and then his tires came to life and with it he was seconds faster than anyone else (especially on the drying parts). The weather played greatly into his hands too. If the rain had intensified, it would have been a move everyone would struggle to remember, but the way it turned out that race, everyone remembers it as one of the masterful decisions. Yeah right.

Same applies to Hamilton in Silverstone too. He sure as hell had no frickin' idea how the weather would continue just as you say. What was clear was that his tire had lost temperature (too much) because he was conserving his lead and tires and tip toeing around the track. My guess is he was slightly nervous and desperately wanted that win in front of his home crowd. It doesn't really matter; He lost temperature and when that happens, you are in a downward spiral and there's little you can do to turn it around. Just as it did for Button back in that other race, Rosberg too had little to lose. He was, I think in 4th position behind both Williams, and when the rain came, the Williams were toast. But because he still had to pass them, maybe even thanks to sitting in dirty air, his driving aggressively spared him from losing tire temperatures which then showed us the 2 second faster lap times vs. Hamilton ahead. Hamilton knew he was in trouble and with the changeable conditions, the gamble of pitting for tires paid off brilliantly. That too was a bold move. And another driver did it too; Vettel. Which actually makes me question how bold that move really was. Now you might say one can expect of a driver of Hamiltons caliber to know all and he could have driven aggressively to prevent that happening. Maybe. But what if Rosberg, who was driving like a maniac in those conditions had gone off (I think he did at some point actually) and his race ended in a DNF? Everyone would be hitting on him as if he's the worlds biggest moron while praising Hamilton super uber intelligence for driving with safety margins. It can always go both ways; Thus why I believe we attribute far too much into the ability of certain drivers. Yes, they do account for a lot, but many of the times, they just make the best of the situation they are in. If they are in front, leading, like Hamilton has been most of this season, one usually drives a bit more conservative because at front, you can only go backwards. The mindset of a driver "on the hunt" is very different and that also influences how one drives or how certain situations and their circumstances turn out. Sometimes they just play into their hands, like I believe it did for Rosberg in Silverstone.

Anyway, as an equalizer; Even if Hamilton is considered lucky to win ahead of Rosberg, pointing to my earlier point, it would only level that deficit of 17 points by 7. Which was the prime point why I disagreed with things being level after Silverstone.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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notsofast
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Any thoughts on why Hamilton said that it was "not cool" (I think those were his words) that he had to drive so fast at the end of the race? He was basically being asked to drive faster than Vettel. What if Vettel had been in front of him instead of behind him? Wouldn't Hamilton himself have wanted to go faster in that scenario?

Not looking for fanboi arguments. Just trying to understand if there was a technical issue with the car or the track that made it "not cool" to drive so fast.

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Phil
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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They were covering off a potential penalty for the low tire pressure (they were under investigation) and wanted him to increase the gap to Vettel for the possibility of a post-race 25 second penalty (which would mean that he would have still kept his win, assuming if it were a 25 second penalty).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Jordan44
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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notsofast wrote:Any thoughts on why Hamilton said that it was "not cool" (I think those were his words) that he had to drive so fast at the end of the race? He was basically being asked to drive faster than Vettel. What if Vettel had been in front of him instead of behind him? Wouldn't Hamilton himself have wanted to go faster in that scenario?

Not looking for fanboi arguments. Just trying to understand if there was a technical issue with the car or the track that made it "not cool" to drive so fast.
Because he was comfortable, his lead wasn't diminishing, and he was suddenly asked out of no where to push. I bet he was confused as hell. And now it's put unnecessary stress on his engine.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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notsofast wrote:Any thoughts on why Hamilton said that it was "not cool" (I think those were his words) that he had to drive so fast at the end of the race? He was basically being asked to drive faster than Vettel. What if Vettel had been in front of him instead of behind him? Wouldn't Hamilton himself have wanted to go faster in that scenario?

Not looking for fanboi arguments. Just trying to understand if there was a technical issue with the car or the track that made it "not cool" to drive so fast.
The tyres would have been at the end of their life, and Hamilton has voiced his concerns in the past about pushing Pirelli tyres to the limit because he feels like they could "explode".

mrluke
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Added to that he is going to assume there is a problem with his car and thats why the team want the gap - to allow a pitstop. He's going to worry that pushing hard might exacerbate the problem part on his car which could fail suddenly or catch him out and lead to a dnf.

I dont think anybody can argue that Ham is scared of pushing hard but can you imagine the fallout if he bins it when leading by 30 seconds?

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Agree with everything there Phil. The 'Button' race you're talking about is probably Canada 2011.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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On the Hamilton being asked to push in those final laps, Hamilton's reactions and Mercedes instructions- I think all concerned parties handled it with maturity and calm. Lewis was frantic on the radio, but he got the job done in case a 25second penalty was imposed. Mercedes get a lot of flak for their strategies on these boards, but they handled that situation rather well.

I'm quite a fan of Peter Bennington. (Bonno)
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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notsofast wrote:Any thoughts on why Hamilton said that it was "not cool" (I think those were his words) that he had to drive so fast at the end of the race? He was basically being asked to drive faster than Vettel. What if Vettel had been in front of him instead of behind him? Wouldn't Hamilton himself have wanted to go faster in that scenario?

Not looking for fanboi arguments. Just trying to understand if there was a technical issue with the car or the track that made it "not cool" to drive so fast.

Because pushing on the limit means potentially missing a corner, going off, spinning and he wasn't being told why. When your concentration should be on which inch of tarmac you want to hit on the next corner but instead you're wondering if you're about to be called in, if they think the ers power will go out in 5 laps, if you're about to get a penalty.

Open questions when you want ultimate concentration is a huge deal. The team were utterly ridiculous in how they handled it. They put a huge amount of pressure on the driver while breaking his concentration and asking for qualy style lap after lap.

An extremely simple message from the pits "don't worry, the FIA are investigating a pressure issue we do not believe is accurate but on the off chance they decide to penalise us we want as big a gap as possible, so push hard to the end".

That doesn't give anything away, it doesn't upset anyone else, it gives a firm and clear message to the driver on why he's pushing. THe driver isn't wondering if there is a failure and/or safety issue coming up. He would have a single thing to focus on and think about. How they didn't do that is beyond me, as Hamilton said it's not cool. Driving over 200mph and trying to be inch perfect around corners takes extreme levels of concentration to get right lap after lap in a situation, compromising that with stupid cryptic messages was unbelievably daft.

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mikeerfol
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Schuttelberg wrote:Agree with everything there Phil. The 'Button' race you're talking about is probably Canada 2011.
Nope, Australia 2010. :P

ChrisF1
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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Schuttelberg wrote:Agree with everything there Phil. The 'Button' race you're talking about is probably Canada 2011.
It's Australia 2010 8)

emaren
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Re: 2015 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

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drunkf1fan wrote: Open questions when you want ultimate concentration is a huge deal. The team were utterly ridiculous in how they handled it. They put a huge amount of pressure on the driver while breaking his concentration and asking for qualy style lap after lap.

An extremely simple message from the pits "don't worry, the FIA are investigating a pressure issue we do not believe is accurate but on the off chance they decide to penalise us we want as big a gap as possible, so push hard to the end".
Which would have alerted Ferrari - and although Vettel had his mirrors full of Rosberg at that moment, once Rosberg's engine blew up rather than relax a little, Vettel would have looked to reduce the gap to below that 25 second potential penalty target. Even with Rosberg in his mirrors the chance of a win just by closing a huge gap a small amount might have changed the outcome.

I wonder if this is the reason for Rosberg pushing to get past Vettel too ? All sense says that he knew he was at the limits of the engine, so why risk it for three points ? Other than knowledge that Hamilton was potentially facing a 25second penalty and overtaking Vettel would send him from 15 points to 25 and hence close the gap to Hamilton...

I really think that Mercedes were put in an extremely difficult position, they could not tell Hamilton WHY he had to hustle, else Ferrari (or Rosberg) would feel that turning it all up to 11 would be worthwhile.

I presume that Ferrari were just as bemused as everyone....