Alternative engine configuration

[FoxHound]

Aye no qualms with Mosley's role in this...

Interesting video this following one. Unsure of the source....but it's popped up earlier on a story TJ13 was running.

On teams and manufacturers wielding power and wanting to force through rules, changes etc.
"In the structure of F1 they'd be outvoted. If Bernie and Todt(FIA) got together, they could push it through because some of the teams will be with them, and that will be enough".

Some pretty good points and some pretty abysmal ones, but decent viewing,

[turbof1]

I agree that Mosley was at the base of selling out the commercial side of the sport. He did not however sold the regulation side. Thay "honor" all belongs to Todt, and is in my opinion the biggest reason of the management crisis we have in F1 today.

[bauc]

Great video, thank you for posting it

[FoxHound]

I agree that Mosley was at the base of selling out the commercial side of the sport. He did not however sold the regulation side. Thay "honor" all belongs to Todt, and is in my opinion the biggest reason of the management crisis we have in F1 today.

I don't know man, Mosley has a pretty wretched record here. He ruled in favour of the Ferrari veto.

It claimed that Ferrari has a veto over any change to F1’s regulations and it added that Max Mosley, former president of motor sport’s governing body the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), awarded the privilege to the team in 2005 to prevent it leaving.

http://www.f1-grandprix.com/?p=37115

He also ruled over the most expensive period in F1's history. Toyota, Renault, Honda, Mercedes(McLaren), Ferrari BMW(Williams>Sauber) Red Bull all throwing hundreds of millions each at the sport.
By choice you could argue, but under Mosley's supervision in any event.

Then there's the manufacturer exodus of 2008 where Toyota, BMW, Honda and then later Renault all left the sport.
Renault did retain supplier status however.

Today is not so much a storm in a tea cup compared to those days but maybe time has dwindled the full impact of his reign?

[R_Redding]

I agree that Mosley was at the base of selling out the commercial side of the sport.

Its always amazed me how Mosely was able to grab/steal?(imho) the commercial rights from FOTA (ie the teams) , and then very quickly sell them virtually unannounced to Ecclestone soon after.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/mo ... elt-in-f1/

I've asked Joe Saward and others in the past, and nobody knows how it was allowed to happen...Its a deal that makes anything done by FIFA look like childrens steps.

It also brings into focus all the dealings with Ron Dennis... the only vocal opposition to the deadly duo.

[bhall II]

This is from the 1997 Concorde Agreement, but I'm pretty sure it remained in effect until the advent of the Strategy Group in 2013.



Clause 8.3 (Eligible Voting Competitors):

[turbof1]

Am I correct to state that document excludes matters concerning sporting regulations, which the FIA kept fully in charge? It would explain why Mosley's budget cap did not get destroyed in the technical work group.

What still kind of sort of confuses is how relative easy most aerodynamic changes were pressed through in the TWG, in that period. Do we have the exception clauses on the matter?

[wuzak]

Its always amazed me how Mosely was able to grab/steal?(imho) the commercial rights from FOTA (ie the teams) , and then very quickly sell them virtually unannounced to Ecclestone soon after.

The commercial rights never belonged to the teams or FOTA. They belonged to the FIA and remain so to this day.

FOM merely leases the commercial rights from the FIA. Albeit their lease is >100 years, all paid up front for a third of what should have been paid to the FIA annually (at least).

[bhall II]

Am I correct to state that document excludes matters concerning sporting regulations, which the FIA kept fully in charge? It would explain why Mosley's budget cap did not get destroyed in the technical work group.

What still kind of sort of confuses is how relative easy most aerodynamic changes were pressed through in the TWG, in that period. Do we have the exception clauses on the matter?

The Sporting side is poorly defined, and the FIA retains the ability to reduce performance in certain areas for safety reasons.

Here's the full text for anyone interested.

[turbof1]

Am I correct to state that document excludes matters concerning sporting regulations, which the FIA kept fully in charge? It would explain why Mosley's budget cap did not get destroyed in the technical work group.

What still kind of sort of confuses is how relative easy most aerodynamic changes were pressed through in the TWG, in that period. Do we have the exception clauses on the matter?

The Sporting side is poorly defined, and the FIA retains the ability to reduce performance in certain areas for safety reasons.

Here's the full text for anyone interested.

I was talking about the period before 2014, on which that document you posted was more or less relevant to. The FIA does have or had some catch all rules.

I'm feeling a conflict in general for that period between how the sport operated with changes in technical regulations, and with the working standard described by that document.
Emphasis of course on "I feel". In all honesty, I have never heard of the F1 Commission until a month ago. I was convinced before that, that last year the SWG decided on regulation changes, within the respected timeline, and passed those changes to the WMSC. Not once was the Commission mentioned I believe, last year.

[bhall II]

I was talking about the period before 2014, on which that document you posted was more or less relevant to. The FIA does have or had some catch all rules.

And that's what I addressed. Here's the relevant text:



EDIT: The probable reason why you had not heard of the F1 Commission until recently is because it's relatively powerless. All it can do is vote to accept or reject proposals from the various working groups; it can't edit/amend/change anything.

[turbof1]

That actually solves my inner conflict on the subject. 7.5 actually yields a lot of power to the FIA, especially because it is very unclearly defined what it means by "unacceptable increase [of performance] over the previous season" or "a trend of increased performance over several seasons". But the biggest part of that article it is all subject to "the opinion of the FIA".

Even if the TWG took measures, the FIA could always deem those as inadequate, and put their own proposal forward.

It's very clever wording of the whole ordeal. The document first seemed to suggest a structure very similar to what we have now in the present, while they actually remained largely in control. I think the only occurences that the TWG actually worked outside the pressure of the FIA, maybe were in 2004 and 2005, when they proposed packages to improve the show for the year after, and 2011 for the 2014 PUs.

I do not think however they still have that same power. The TWG has been replaced by the SWG, and it looks like the FIA lost control when they sold their alleged 2/3 of their power.

I am very curious how the current counterpart of that document looks like.

[bhall II]

Your inner conflicts are more entertaining than mine.

[turbof1]

Well, the issue is that one grows up with the sport and formulates an opinion for himself how the sport is/has been controlled, based on how he or she experienced the sport as an outsider.

I just happened to come in a momentary situation where that opinion and that document did not align anymore. 7.5 of that document actually solved it.

Yes, my brain smells like bacon when facing internal conflicts [of the mind] .

[bhall II]

I don't think the repercussions of 7.5 are significant. It basically just says the FIA can direct that performance be reduced through uniform aerodynamic changes.

Much more significant, in my view, are Charlie Whiting's technical directives that barely try to conform to basic logic. For instance, the rationale cited for banning FRIC and tuned mass dampers - "movable aero"- should also ban all sprung suspension components.