Silly Season 2016/2017

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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NathanOlder wrote:I dont see Verstappen and Ricciardo having the edge, I'd say the opposite.
They have a huge que of young talented winning drivers waiting for their seats. Plus Red Bull have already shown, they will ditch a driver without much notice.
Kvyat, Vergne, Buemi, Alguersuari ect.

With the likes of Sainz Jr, Gasly , de Costa and Co all doing their most to take a seat in Red Bull, Kvyat shows some bad luck and poor showings ,could be game over.
Simple, if the RedBull is the winning car the next few years, the RedBull drivers are the only ones able to get in. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and whoever can jump low or high, they won't get hired. For Verstappen and Ricciardo on the other hand, a switch to a (better performing) Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault whatever is, however difficult, possible.

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SR71
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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sorry if this has been posted....
"The other, floated by Autosprint, is more plausible: Vettel "procrastinating" on any early discussions of a post 2017 renewal because he's evaluating McLaren Honda's progress versus the Scuderia's long term prospects."
http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2016/07 ... -from.html

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WaikeCU
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Jolle wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I dont see Verstappen and Ricciardo having the edge, I'd say the opposite.
They have a huge que of young talented winning drivers waiting for their seats. Plus Red Bull have already shown, they will ditch a driver without much notice.
Kvyat, Vergne, Buemi, Alguersuari ect.

With the likes of Sainz Jr, Gasly , de Costa and Co all doing their most to take a seat in Red Bull, Kvyat shows some bad luck and poor showings ,could be game over.
Simple, if the RedBull is the winning car the next few years, the RedBull drivers are the only ones able to get in. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and whoever can jump low or high, they won't get hired. For Verstappen and Ricciardo on the other hand, a switch to a (better performing) Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault whatever is, however difficult, possible.
I hate to admit that this is the most likely to happen, but can't deny how exciting it would be to see a potential 4-time WC Lewis Hamilton in Red Bull colors. I think a lot of fans out there have wet dreams dreaming about this situation. It would be a shock move though if it happens, but then I can't see why it can't happen. If RB management smell there's an economic opportunity to earn a lot of money through Lewis, then it must be a win-win situation for both. RB will earn a lot through fan base, RB has the guarantee that Lewis delivers, looking at his record. Lewis gets to drive a Newey (if he's still there) masterpiece, which if everything seems right, is the fastest car of the field.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Jolle wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I dont see Verstappen and Ricciardo having the edge, I'd say the opposite.
They have a huge que of young talented winning drivers waiting for their seats. Plus Red Bull have already shown, they will ditch a driver without much notice.
Kvyat, Vergne, Buemi, Alguersuari ect.

With the likes of Sainz Jr, Gasly , de Costa and Co all doing their most to take a seat in Red Bull, Kvyat shows some bad luck and poor showings ,could be game over.
Simple, if the RedBull is the winning car the next few years, the RedBull drivers are the only ones able to get in. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and whoever can jump low or high, they won't get hired. For Verstappen and Ricciardo on the other hand, a switch to a (better performing) Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault whatever is, however difficult, possible.
If Mercedes is the winning car in the next few years Nico and Lewis have the seats locked out. 2019 is the earliest anyone can get into the Merc, so its not that much different IMO
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Vasconia
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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WaikeCU wrote:
Jolle wrote:
NathanOlder wrote:I dont see Verstappen and Ricciardo having the edge, I'd say the opposite.
They have a huge que of young talented winning drivers waiting for their seats. Plus Red Bull have already shown, they will ditch a driver without much notice.
Kvyat, Vergne, Buemi, Alguersuari ect.

With the likes of Sainz Jr, Gasly , de Costa and Co all doing their most to take a seat in Red Bull, Kvyat shows some bad luck and poor showings ,could be game over.
Simple, if the RedBull is the winning car the next few years, the RedBull drivers are the only ones able to get in. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and whoever can jump low or high, they won't get hired. For Verstappen and Ricciardo on the other hand, a switch to a (better performing) Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault whatever is, however difficult, possible.
I hate to admit that this is the most likely to happen, but can't deny how exciting it would be to see a potential 4-time WC Lewis Hamilton in Red Bull colors. I think a lot of fans out there have wet dreams dreaming about this situation. It would be a shock move though if it happens, but then I can't see why it can't happen. If RB management smell there's an economic opportunity to earn a lot of money through Lewis, then it must be a win-win situation for both. RB will earn a lot through fan base, RB has the guarantee that Lewis delivers, looking at his record. Lewis gets to drive a Newey (if he's still there) masterpiece, which if everything seems right, is the fastest car of the field.
I dont see Lewis leaving a legendary brand like Mercedes to join a brand/team like RB. And RB has enough talent for the upcoming years, they dont need to find another driver.

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Vasconia
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Kvyat is already gone basically. Besides that not too much tree shaking for redbull in the coming years. Helmut is satisfied that the top two positions are filled with the creme de la creme and its now just a matter of waiting for danny or max to leave, or fall off their game.

Surprised no one is spitballing buemi for the renault seats... It is obvious he has won the drive. Magnuessen has failed to destroy palmer so surely he is not valued any more as a lead driver. I say fifty percent chance he will be dropped with Palmer. The sure shot is beumi though and his teammate will either be Kmag, Ocon or Massa who is a known quantity. Not perez though.

Why not Perez? Renault would have Perez in a heartbeat but Perez feels he is too good for them at the moment. The factory drive is tempting but he is aiming for that ferrari seat and the best thing for him is to wait it out in force india till 2018.
My dream is to see Renault with Sainz and Perez. Pure passion and racecraft. It would be a truly boost for the team. If not for 2017, at least for 2018.

Jolle
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Vasconia wrote:
WaikeCU wrote:
Jolle wrote:
Simple, if the RedBull is the winning car the next few years, the RedBull drivers are the only ones able to get in. Drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and whoever can jump low or high, they won't get hired. For Verstappen and Ricciardo on the other hand, a switch to a (better performing) Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault whatever is, however difficult, possible.
I hate to admit that this is the most likely to happen, but can't deny how exciting it would be to see a potential 4-time WC Lewis Hamilton in Red Bull colors. I think a lot of fans out there have wet dreams dreaming about this situation. It would be a shock move though if it happens, but then I can't see why it can't happen. If RB management smell there's an economic opportunity to earn a lot of money through Lewis, then it must be a win-win situation for both. RB will earn a lot through fan base, RB has the guarantee that Lewis delivers, looking at his record. Lewis gets to drive a Newey (if he's still there) masterpiece, which if everything seems right, is the fastest car of the field.
I dont see Lewis leaving a legendary brand like Mercedes to join a brand/team like RB. And RB has enough talent for the upcoming years, they dont need to find another driver.
My point is not that he/they will, my point is that they can't.

LookBackTime
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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A lot of words ...

Williams keen to extend Jenson Button's Formula One career with deal for 2017

http://sport.bt.com/more-sport-hub/more ... 4076936040

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Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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If I were Williams, I'd try to keep Bottas (or Massa) and replace either with a driver like Button. As long as you have both drivers, you won't be sure how much they are pushing each other. By getting in a new driver, you also bring in fresh ideas and a different yardstick to measure against. Button might be a good deal where that is concerned.

Me too am not too amazed by what Bottas has shown, but purely down to age and him usually outqualifying Massa and outscoring him, one would think it's Massa who is going to find himself without a seat for 2017.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Jolle
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Phil wrote:If I were Williams, I'd try to keep Bottas (or Massa) and replace either with a driver like Button. As long as you have both drivers, you won't be sure how much they are pushing each other. By getting in a new driver, you also bring in fresh ideas and a different yardstick to measure against. Button might be a good deal where that is concerned.

Me too am not too amazed by what Bottas has shown, but purely down to age and him usually outqualifying Massa and outscoring him, one would think it's Massa who is going to find himself without a seat for 2017.
I think in the current days the influence of the driver to guide a team is overrated, especially teams with a good simulator. A big part of Friday practise is to sync the simulator so the reserve drivers/engineers and the calculators can do their work.

I found it very typical that before the Baku GP Alonso didn't do any laps in the sim.

KeiKo403
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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This whole thing with Sergio Perez and Force India contract talks. Is it Perez just trying to get a bigger cut of his sponsership money for himself or could he possibly move on else where? Maybe replace Esteban in the Haas and try to get a shot at Kimi' or Vettel's seat in 2018?

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Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Jolle wrote:I think in the current days the influence of the driver to guide a team is overrated, especially teams with a good simulator.
I agree with that, though I wouldn't underestimate perhaps the ability of a driver coming from a competing team (with a superior budget) to bring some insightful knowledge of his former car to his new team. Which is why I've always maintained that Rosberg would be a good catch for a team like Ferrari, as why Button might be attractive for a team like Williams.

Aerodynamicists (sp?) and other engineers usually have gardening leave. While drivers wouldn't have that insight on the engineering level, I'd expect them to be quite aware of what is actually happening in a broader sense that could prove to be helpful for any team at a lower level.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Jolle
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Phil wrote:
Jolle wrote:I think in the current days the influence of the driver to guide a team is overrated, especially teams with a good simulator.
I agree with that, though I wouldn't underestimate perhaps the ability of a driver coming from a competing team (with a superior budget) to bring some insightful knowledge of his former car to his new team. Which is why I've always maintained that Rosberg would be a good catch for a team like Ferrari, as why Button might be attractive for a team like Williams.

Aerodynamicists (sp?) and other engineers usually have gardening leave. While drivers wouldn't have that insight on the engineering level, I'd expect them to be quite aware of what is actually happening in a broader sense that could prove to be helpful for any team at a lower level.
Maybe a little. Normally the drivers, especially if its clear that they are going to jump teams are far from the actual numbers and details. There was an interesting interview with Damon Hill about his last year at Williams, they just shut him out on the '97 car. I assume that a Ferrari tech knows more about the W07 then Hamilton. Rosberg could be a odd one out because of his engineering degree but for the rest it's more or less "arrive and drive". The drivers with the most details in their head will be the sim drivers/test drivers. Vergne at Ferrari for instance. They work with the design team, drivers only (for the most part) the racing team.

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Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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A little, is still better than nothing. ;)

And I'm not entirely sure these drivers are as simply "arrive and drive" as you put it. Much understanding is required with these "spaceships", how the ERS power is generated and how long it can be deployed. For instance Button during many interviews last year was quite outspoken about what they were lacking and what he felt other teams are doing better. This tells me that these drivers do have quite a broad understanding on what is going on under the shell. They must, in order to extract the most of it.

Sure, I don't expect a Wehrlein or Haryanto to fully understand. Or even Verstappen. He probably doesn't have the understanding quite yet and also lacks the experience of having driven different cars to have any sense of comparison. But the drivers we are talking about here, Button or Rosberg, have clearly been in the sport long enough to have very insightful information about what their teams are doing, even if they may lack black & white numbers or a very deep technical understanding.

Also; You quoted Hill and Williams. Why go that far back? 2007 - McLaren and the whole Spygate shows pretty clearly that Alonso had a very good understanding of what was going on on a technical level that he then later used in the whole blackmail. This doesn't suggest these drivers are simply "arrive and drive" at all.

Back to Button to Williams; What we are seeing with Williams falling back IMO has a lot to do that the Power-Unit advantage is getting smaller. Mercedes, as the factory team, might still have a edge, thanks to insight into their own engine and also the engine maps and the fuel - something Williams can't quite exploit, but in regards to aero, even in 2014, I believe they were quite a far bit behind and that was only masked because back then, and in 2015 too, they were still riding on having a large engine advantage. I'm not suggesting that a driver like Button could come to a team like Williams and turn things around - not at all - but he might carry some interesting insight and knowledge that could help point some engineers at Williams in the right direction where some of that [aero or chassis] deficit may lie.

And if you have two drivers like Massa and Bottas, neither really destroying the other and the former not really being considered "top of the crop", well, maybe a driver like Button on a year to year contract might be a worthwhile gamble.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2016/2017

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Jolle wrote:
Maybe a little. Normally the drivers, especially if its clear that they are going to jump teams are far from the actual numbers and details. There was an interesting interview with Damon Hill about his last year at Williams, they just shut him out on the '97 car. I assume that a Ferrari tech knows more about the W07 then Hamilton. Rosberg could be a odd one out because of his engineering degree but for the rest it's more or less "arrive and drive". The drivers with the most details in their head will be the sim drivers/test drivers. Vergne at Ferrari for instance. They work with the design team, drivers only (for the most part) the racing team.
Rosberg does not have an engineering degree though. He was only accepted into Imperial College but he didn't take up the offer. He continued racing instead. There is no way you can properly complete a three or four year degree in engineering and have time to race as much as he did. He could probably extend the degree to five or six years and even then it would be still be tough to make it to classes and do all those labs and mid-terms. No way.
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