2016 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, Fri 10 – Sun 12 Jun

[Vasconia]

Rosberg can´t fight wheel to wheel. You can´t win a WDC like this, specially if your team mate is that good. I like the guy, but as a driver I´m afraid he´s several steps down Lewis

What a race for Carlos!. On a power track, with a year old Ferrari PU, he managed to climb from p20 to p9 and score 2 point, impressive. Kvyat countdown in F1 is accelerating

The question is...what would have happened if Nico would have done the same?

You don´t need to figure it out, he did exactly the same only two races ago, only difference is Nico move cost 43 points to the team (ruined an easy 1-2), while Lewis one only cost 8 points (from p2 to p5 for Nico)

Sincerely, that is what happens when one of your drivers push the other to the grass, and the team say there´s none to blame. Lewis took note and applied same theory yesterday, except situation was a lot more excusable (first corner and he didn´t do any mistake, unlike Nico who pushed Lewis out after his own mistake with PU mapping)

Nico got in return same he did two races ago.

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

[Schuttelberg]

1) Vettel probably had his best race of the season and while he's been almost spotless on race days, him and Ferrari have struggled to maximise Qualifying, thereby, the scratchy season. Yesterday, Vettel could have been on any strategy he liked, Hamilton and Mercedes would have done the opposite and still got him. Why? Because they can. Mercedes are in a wonderful place at the moment where even if they choose a slightly slower strategy, the pace in their car/driver allows them to compensate for it. Ferrari though have to realize that 'track position' is king in Formula 1 and while they would have put themselves under risk for the undercut to Hamilton, it was probably the right strategy to choose. Also, a two stopper was not such a bad idea, but US, S, US might have been a better way to go about it rather than US, SS, S. In hindsight, we're all smarter, fact simply is that the Mercedes-Hamilton combination was slightly faster and a win was always going to be difficult.

2) I agree with you that Hamilton was good at managing the tyres, but I also feel that the compound along with track temperatures helped. Pirelli have simply gone for a more durable compound all around this year to avoid any negative publicity. As for Hamilton's manoeuvre on Rosberg? Hard, but fair like you say. Rosberg's mistake came the previous grand prix in Monaco when he allowed Hamilton by. He should have just declined (eg- Hungary 2014)

Yes, Mercedes can choose a worse strategy and they still can win. Its a shame that that tyres last so much, 40-50 laps is terrible because the chances for different strategies are reduced drastically.

Personally, I enjoy the durable tyres a lot more than the one's that go pop out of the blue. Like I mentioned in an earlier post as well, Mercedes and Hamilton would have done the opposite of Vettel regardless of the strategy he chose.

To put it in perspective, say Vettel had carried on when the VSC was deployed, Hamilton would have made the under-cut on Vettel. Hamilton did a 1:15:9 at the fag end of the GP on 40 lap old tyres while Vettel was only managing 1:16:2 at the same time on fresher tyres. Vettel needed 0.3 seconds a lap more pace to make his strategy work, and that much pace was just not left in the Ferrari.

[Restomaniac]

Rosberg can´t fight wheel to wheel. You can´t win a WDC like this, specially if your team mate is that good. I like the guy, but as a driver I´m afraid he´s several steps down Lewis

What a race for Carlos!. On a power track, with a year old Ferrari PU, he managed to climb from p20 to p9 and score 2 point, impressive. Kvyat countdown in F1 is accelerating

The question is...what would have happened if Nico would have done the same?

You don´t need to figure it out, he did exactly the same only two races ago, only difference is Nico move cost 43 points to the team (ruined an easy 1-2), while Lewis one only cost 8 points (from p2 to p5 for Nico)

Sincerely, that is what happens when one of your drivers push the other to the grass, and the team say there´s none to blame. Lewis took note and applied same theory yesterday, except situation was a lot more excusable (first corner and he didn´t do any mistake, unlike Nico who pushed Lewis out after his own mistake with PU mapping)

Nico got in return same he did two races ago.

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

[Schuttelberg]

Rosberg can´t fight wheel to wheel. You can´t win a WDC like this, specially if your team mate is that good. I like the guy, but as a driver I´m afraid he´s several steps down Lewis

What a race for Carlos!. On a power track, with a year old Ferrari PU, he managed to climb from p20 to p9 and score 2 point, impressive. Kvyat countdown in F1 is accelerating

You don´t need to figure it out, he did exactly the same only two races ago, only difference is Nico move cost 43 points to the team (ruined an easy 1-2), while Lewis one only cost 8 points (from p2 to p5 for Nico)

Sincerely, that is what happens when one of your drivers push the other to the grass, and the team say there´s none to blame. Lewis took note and applied same theory yesterday, except situation was a lot more excusable (first corner and he didn´t do any mistake, unlike Nico who pushed Lewis out after his own mistake with PU mapping)

Nico got in return same he did two races ago.

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.' Then there's the rule of 'one cars width' and Rosberg had his front wing slightly ahead there. I'm in no way saying that what Hamilton did was wrong, but he would know fully well that 'Rosberg WILL yield' but he wouldn't be so sure if you put the other two names on the race track with him.

My point is, the whole dynamic changes once the car you're racing is your own teammate who is your direct rival in F1. And in this case, main championship competitor. It's just another level after that!

[Phil]

Hamilton rejected a similar team order at Hungary in 2014, another circuit notoriously difficult to pass.

Can we please - for the love of god - stop with Hungary 2014? Hungary was different - both were fighting for position and were racing eachother. Hamilton, due to circumstance and despite starting much further behind, ended up ahead of Rosberg. Rosberg was "supposedly" on a different strategy, but there was no reason they couldn't have put Hamilton on that strategy either at that point. At that point, they were both on the same strategy facing the same circumstance. They asked Hamilton to let Rosberg by to which Hamilton responded I’m not slowing down for Nico. If he can get close and overtake, then he can overtake. It's also good to note that at no point was Rosberg in an actual position to even attempt a pass.

They then pitted Rosberg (bearing in mind they could have pitted Hamilton instead or both to give them both a better shot at victory) who then, on fresher tires caught Hamilton toward the end of the GP.

This probably led to Mercedes post race conceding that the team-order wasn't justified given that both drivers were racing each other.

Monaco 2016 - Nico clearly had some issue. He was not only holding up his team-mate who was right on his tale, he was holding up everyone. Meanwhile, Ricciardo had a gap of already 10 seconds. When you are facing an issue, be that confidence, a technical issue, whatever, there is no point in ruining your own day. It's unfortunate, but that is why the team asked Nico to let Hamilton by. Reality is, even without the team order, Hamilton would have probably found a way past eventually, at the latest by staying out a lap longer. I said this earlier, but I think the team did the right thing from a teams perspective, but it surely wasn't the right thing from Nicos. They gave him the opportunity to speed up before they issued the order (Nico said so post-race) in their defense.

This however has absolutely NOTHING to do with an on-track first corner incident where one driver is on the outside and one on the inside and the one on the inside pushes the car on the outside wide on corner exit. This time, it was Hamilton on the inside, Canada 2014 it was the other way around, just as it was in Australia 2016 when Nico did exactly the same to Hamilton.

[Restomaniac]

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.' Then there's the rule of 'one cars width' and Rosberg had his front wing slightly ahead there. I'm in no way saying that what Hamilton did was wrong, but he would know fully well that 'Rosberg WILL yield' but he wouldn't be so sure if you put the other two names on the race track with him.

My point is, the whole dynamic changes once the car you're racing is your own teammate who is your direct rival in F1. And in this case, main championship competitor. It's just another level after that!

I agree and I think Hamilton should have given him some space. However you need to know exactly who it is your facing. Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and others were and are known for not giving a snot about anyone when it came to the bash and bang whilst behind the wheel.

[Schuttelberg]

Hamilton rejected a similar team order at Hungary in 2014, another circuit notoriously difficult to pass.

Can we please - for the love of god - stop with Hungary 2014? Hungary was different - both were fighting for position and were racing eachother. Hamilton, due to circumstance and despite starting much further behind, ended up ahead of Rosberg. Rosberg was "supposedly" on a different strategy, but there was no reason they couldn't have put Hamilton on that strategy either at that point. At that point, they were both on the same strategy facing the same circumstance. They asked Hamilton to let Rosberg by to which Hamilton responded I’m not slowing down for Nico. If he can get close and overtake, then he can overtake. It's also good to note that at no point was Rosberg in an actual position to even attempt a pass.

They then pitted Rosberg (bearing in mind they could have pitted Hamilton instead or both to give them both a better shot at victory) who then, on fresher tires caught Hamilton toward the end of the GP.

This probably led to Mercedes post race conceding that the team-order wasn't justified given that both drivers were racing each other.

Monaco 2016 - Nico clearly had some issue. He was not only holding up his team-mate who was right on his tale, he was holding up everyone. Meanwhile, Ricciardo had a gap of already 10 seconds. When you are facing an issue, be that confidence, a technical issue, whatever, there is no point in ruining your own day. It's unfortunate, but that is why the team asked Nico to let Hamilton by. Reality is, even without the team order, Hamilton would have probably found a way past eventually, at the latest by staying out a lap longer. I said this earlier, but I think the team did the right thing from a teams perspective, but it surely wasn't the right thing from Nicos. They gave him the opportunity to speed up before they issued the order (Nico said so post-race) in their defense.

This however has absolutely NOTHING to do with an on-track first corner incident where one driver is on the outside and one on the inside and the one on the inside pushes the car on the outside wide on corner exit. This time, it was Hamilton on the inside, Canada 2014 it was the other way around, just as it was in Australia 2016 when Nico did exactly the same to Hamilton.

Like I said earlier, this has nothing to do with the Turn 1 episode for me. I know they were racing for position in Hungary, just like they were in Monaco. Rosberg had a chance to win at Hungary in 2014 if Hamilton let him by, but he didn't and he was justified to do so. I understand Mercedes perspective at Monaco this year, I'm just saying that if Rosberg wants to win the WDC, he needs to be ruthless. Saying, 'I'm not letting Lewis past, if he can pass me, well and good,' would have been the right thing to do for his championship chances.

I'm not saying Lewis is wrong or Mercedes is wrong or Nico is wrong, I'm simply saying that Rosberg needs to dump the charity and be Hamilton against Hamilton to have a chance at winning the WDC! Yes, Mercedes benefitted big time from Rosberg letting Hamilton past, but Rosberg took a mighty fine hit for his personal goal of trying to be WDC.

[Jolle]

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.' Then there's the rule of 'one cars width' and Rosberg had his front wing slightly ahead there. I'm in no way saying that what Hamilton did was wrong, but he would know fully well that 'Rosberg WILL yield' but he wouldn't be so sure if you put the other two names on the race track with him.

My point is, the whole dynamic changes once the car you're racing is your own teammate who is your direct rival in F1. And in this case, main championship competitor. It's just another level after that!

I agree and I think Hamilton should have given him some space. However you need to know exactly who it is your facing. Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and others were and are known for not giving a snot about anyone when it came to the bash and bang whilst behind the wheel.

Yes, Hamiltom knows exactly what he is doing. Exit swimmingpool/tunnel with RIC was a brilliant example. He left enough space not to crash or be penalized but close enough to scare him off. He knew Rosberg was there and what option he would take.

[lebesset]

Sorry, but that is a bit nonsense. Even Bottas beat faster cars with one stop.

These are the laps before Seb missed the last chicane in lap 56.

Lap Lewis Vettel Gap
46 1:17.281[1] 1:16.727[2] +0.554 -5.900 26
47 1:16.855[1] 1:16.824[2] +0.031 -5.869 27
48 1:16.885[1] 1:16.636[2] +0.249 -5.620 28
49 1:16.765[1] 1:16.429[2] +0.336 -5.284 29
50 1:16.827[1] 1:16.398[2] +0.429 -4.855 30
51 1:16.518[1] 1:16.478[2] +0.040 -4.815 31
52 1:16.666[1] 1:16.504[2] +0.162 -4.653 32
53 1:16.889[1] 1:16.757[2] +0.132 -4.521 33
54 1:16.859[1] 1:16.776[2] +0.083 -4.438 34
55 1:16.668[1] 1:16.534[2] +0.134 -4.304 35

56 1:16.730[1] 1:18.191[2] -1.461 -5.765 21

In those ten laps Vettel gained 1.6 seconds. There were 15 laps to go at that point, he was never going to catch Lewis unless Lewis's tires went off.

Also, Lewis did a 1.15.981 in lap 68. So there was definitely more than enough pace was in the Mercedes, even in the end.

I suspect there was more pace in the Ferrari too but its a game of pushing and conserving at the same time which never works out....

seb said after the race that he was giving it everything

[lebesset]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

the ferrari strategy was as agreed before the race and using the virtual safety car period to stop was actually very cute ; what wasn't factored in was that the tyres would last so long in the exceptionally low temperatures , also that hamilton would be able to carry on and test that
can I quote rabbie burns here ? try...to a mouse

[GrayGreat]

I'm sorry but as I pointed out we had clear evidence that a Ferarri on fresher soft tyres struggled to catch a Merc on older soft tyres. We also had clear evidence that a Merc on fresher soft tyres was able to catch and breeze past a Ferarri on older soft tyres.
That isn't a guess as it happened today clear as day.

Cars don't drive themselves. Do you think Bahrain '14 was the evidence that Williams was quicker there, China Q that Red Bull was quicker, Spain start that TR was quicker and Monaco that Force India is a better car? Raikkonen was lucky he only lost to two slower cars, does it tell you that Williams and RB were quicker? Strategies are only good with drivers that can make them work. Having said that, even if the logic is that Merc is quicker on harder tyres (how much is debatable) and that's why using VSC to create some (measurable) advantage was needed - in hindsight it looked like defending the lead on the same strategy could have been easier, not certain.

- Hamilton's excuses:"Sebastian and Nico got quite a good run down to Turn One and then the tyres were cold, big understeer," The same kind of understeer happened in USA and Suzuka. He did it on purpose and lies now. Where is good cop - bad cop Merc gentlemen duo? Planning TOs, counting car sales with Zetsche or writing letters to fanatics?-

Rosberg:"It was difficult with fuel – I nearly ran out of fuel," he said. "So that's why I couldn't really attack Max properly, and he did a very good job to defend."I had to drop back again to save fuel and attack again, and in the end it went completely pear-shaped and spun around, but managed to carry it home still."

Wonderful world of F1 if they don't talk about it doesn't exist. Where are pushing 100% fans?

You know this is rich coming from you. You are the same guy supporting Rosberg's blatantly nasty move at barcelona that wiped out both cars, and now you are here playing the saint when Rosberg put his nose in closing gap in the middle of a corner he would have never made even if Lewis wasn't there.
This was mild compared to Nico's nasty moves. In fact this wasn't even a move by Lewis, Lewis just drove the racing line and Nico was dumb enough to shove himself in a dead end.

Lewis was dumb enough to do it in 2014. What's so special about Nico doing it?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[f1316]

Sorry, but that is a bit nonsense. Even Bottas beat faster cars with one stop.

These are the laps before Seb missed the last chicane in lap 56.

Lap Lewis Vettel Gap
46 1:17.281[1] 1:16.727[2] +0.554 -5.900 26
47 1:16.855[1] 1:16.824[2] +0.031 -5.869 27
48 1:16.885[1] 1:16.636[2] +0.249 -5.620 28
49 1:16.765[1] 1:16.429[2] +0.336 -5.284 29
50 1:16.827[1] 1:16.398[2] +0.429 -4.855 30
51 1:16.518[1] 1:16.478[2] +0.040 -4.815 31
52 1:16.666[1] 1:16.504[2] +0.162 -4.653 32
53 1:16.889[1] 1:16.757[2] +0.132 -4.521 33
54 1:16.859[1] 1:16.776[2] +0.083 -4.438 34
55 1:16.668[1] 1:16.534[2] +0.134 -4.304 35

56 1:16.730[1] 1:18.191[2] -1.461 -5.765 21

In those ten laps Vettel gained 1.6 seconds. There were 15 laps to go at that point, he was never going to catch Lewis unless Lewis's tires went off.

Also, Lewis did a 1.15.981 in lap 68. So there was definitely more than enough pace was in the Mercedes, even in the end.

I suspect there was more pace in the Ferrari too but its a game of pushing and conserving at the same time which never works out....

seb said after the race that he was giving it everything

The point though is not whether Vettel was faster - despite his pace being impressive, it's still clear that Mercedes are quicker.

The point is he gave up track position which put the onus back on him to catch and pass Lewis, rather than making Lewis pass him.

Perhaps Lewis would have had the pace advantage to make a two stop work without needing to pass on track, or perhaps he would have made a pass at the end on fresher tyres, but we don't know because Ferrari made that bit easy for Mercedes.

[iotar__]

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

- Like in China - where Vettel put the car in the wrong place 3 times at the start? Or Spain - the same amount.
- Like in Abu Dhabi '15- for Alonso? Remember Spa '14 when Alonso put the car in a much worse place and Magnussen got a penalty for nothing? 20 other examples if you need: starting with Suzuka '12.
- Like in Bahrain where Hamilton put the car in the path of Bottas or in Spain where he put it the worst place possible for no reason at all (50 other examples if you need starting with losing '10 championship in Monza and Singapore)

This is just about the worst example to use for bashing Rosberg and hyping drivers mentioned above. As for using clumsy or dirty driving like crashing into team-mate in Spain as some sign of a champion you should remember Spa '14 and internal Mercedes penalty on top of fake public outrage from Lauda and Wolff . Quite the opposite reaction from: Bahrain '15, USA and Japan '15, Spain '16 or this race.

Coverage was awful they missed a lot of live action, Vettel's mistake on the first lap, Ricciardo's later losing to Bottas, overtakes, they show pitstop (Rosberg's for example) but not the exit and position afterwards, Massa retiring is more important than on track events.

[wickedz50]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

I feel the same but somewhere in their heart they knew they do not have the pace to fend off Merc on the soft tyres. They were hoping for rain or SC or some sorts of interruption. It was a collective decision and that's why Vettel was pretty cool about it.
Merc tyre management is exceptional and Ferrari have no answers now. Previously they were very good but these days they are like fish out of the water.
Experts in the Ferrari team must be having better data to confirm their 2 stop strategy which we cannot see.
None the less unless that chasis and aero improves there is no hope this season.
Its bad luck that there was no rain nor any SC. They played their cards based on uncertain events. Luck is not on Ferrari's side at the moment.

[Phil]

I know they were racing for position in Hungary, just like they were in Monaco. Rosberg had a chance to win at Hungary in 2014 if Hamilton let him by, but he didn't and he was justified to do so. I understand Mercedes perspective at Monaco this year, I'm just saying that if Rosberg wants to win the WDC, he needs to be ruthless. Saying, 'I'm not letting Lewis past, if he can pass me, well and good,' would have been the right thing to do for his championship chances.

Sorry, I didn't want to come across condescending or as aggressive.

Two points:
Hungary was different, not because Nico had a shot at the win, but because on lap 55 of the Hungarian GP, they could have put either driver on that different strategy. They chose to leave the leading driver (Hamilton) out and pit the other on fresh tires (Rosberg). This is what gave Rosberg the opportunity to win. My point was that given they were both racing each other, they could have simply pitted both drivers and both would have had the chance to fight for the win. It made no sense to put Rosberg on a different, potentially better, strategy and then have Hamilton move aside for it. That is what happened and so before that lap 55 when Rosberg was close to Hamilton and they wanted him to wave past Rosberg, Hamilton second guessed that order, saying that he wouldn't slow down. Watching the race, Rosberg wasn't in a position to attempt a pass himself.

Was it wrong to disobey team-orders? Yes. No driver is bigger than the team. Was it (morally) right to ask Hamilton to let Rosberg by? IMO no, given they could have put either drivers on that strategy and avoided the whole topic together.

2nd point - Monaco - Nico had an issue. It perhaps wasn't of technical nature, but one of confidence. Even so, when one driver is struggling as much as Nico did, there's no way as a team you want him holding up your other driver. To do so would be self destructing for both and the team. As I just posted in the Mercedes team-topic, I actually think Rosberg was relieved once he got the order to let Hamilton by. I think part of the reason of his lack of confidence was how aggressive Hamilton was behaving in Nico's rear. He didn't want to put his car in the wall and risk a DNF at his home race, but he didn't have the confidence under those conditions with the state of his tires.

I actually think Monaco was quite fair. The team gave the order to speed up. Then when failing to do so, they eventually gave the order to let him past. At that point, the situation isn't much different than if you are handicapped by a car issue and that is preventing you from performing at your best. Why destroy the race for the rest of the 600+ employees who worked hard to get both cars on the grid? Fair play if they are both going at it with everything working normal, but when facing issues like Rosberg did in Monaco?