2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[GhostF1]

Looks like Honda is out next season. Mac Merc is back?
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/mclaren-p ... 1796116763

So the same official information and quotes but with a different journalist adding their spin to it, that's probably the sixth iteration of rumour hunting I've seen with the same real info. Hard information is absent from that article.

[GhostF1]

Forums would quiet places without speculation. I agree it's a risky move, and assessing those risks will be key to any potential change.

I hear what you are saying about it not all being about power and reliability, but it's pure speculation that the Honda PU is lighter and has a lower COG (if that's what you are referring to). I'm sure all front running cars are at the minimum weight. It's hard to imagine McLaren would be doing worse with a Merc PU.

On another note, it will be interesting to compare the differences in PU between cars if McLaren bring the updated PU (however large that may be) for Alonso and keep Vandoorne on the old spec in Baku.

You're right in that speculation has it's place and I realise a forum requires discussion from/for both sides, I'm just disliking the unnecessary loathing from certain members for pro-Honda guys when in reality the pro-Merc blokes only have fury on their side regarding the swap, no facts or evidence it would immediately create a winner.

I wasn't alluding to the CoG or weight, I too take those rumours with a grain of salt (although they were light last year and only gotten lighter this year where everyone got heavier), but just that the notion the Merc PU, including all it's ancillaries + gearbox integration, would just slot into where the Honda was without chassis changes is borderline not possible.

[GhostF1]

IMO Media have been successfully change the points of view of some people here =D> . .
I found myself that Japanese press is being a little more reliable at this time, neutrality is important . .
I do agree that switching to Merc PU will (at least) increase the possibility of finished in the top 5, but that won't be an effective solution for McLaren . . . IMO they should give Honda some bags of money to improve their dyno, instead of wasting their money to do the transition. .

Imo, Honda should throw some more money at McLaren for losing on sponsorship money and prize money due to Honda's incompetence.

Let's be honest. There is no indication whatsoever that Honda is able to make this engine formula a success. The other manufacturers are too far ahead. Honda could close in on them eventually (I may hope) but they will never compete with them directly. Surpassing Mercedes and Ferrari is out of the question. McLaren switching to Mercedes engines will not win them the championship for obvious reasons, but will make them competitive again. That is almost guaranteed. Sticking with Honda is a gamble. It's dream you have, like when you buy yourself a lottery ticket.

Therefore, I see no other viable option than to use a Mercedes PU from 2018 onwards. Meanwhile they should try to partner up with a European manufacturer, like Volkswagen, for 2021. Then they can fight for the championship again. It is the best option for McLaren.

I'm confused at the "no indication" part. Reading only race results does not give you a clear picture. Neither does suggesting a completely different party such as VW who for all we know, be worse than Honda if they attempt this formula suddenly. All that I have seen from Honda is an impressive development pace, yes to state the obvious, their MGU-H this year is rubbish and has caused all this drama, and again they say they have the fix ready and waiting for the next component install (everyone likes to ignore this and choose the slagging route though). Before Canada where McLaren spoke their mind, there were pages of commentary regarding their improvement with each race constantly closing the gap every GP, noticeably so. But yeah, no indication of improvement whatsoever.. This hardware is essentially what we had in Australia bar some intake updates and mapping improvements as the data comes in, so I'm confused as to why everyone changes their mind each GP. We knew the update was not coming until around Baku and that's all we were told by Honda, so the only change has been the media and their various spins on it. Yes they have zero points, please say it again it's my favourite, yes McLaren are pissed, yes Honda are embarrassed, but the facts have not changed. New engine incoming, will they be more competitive this year? Most certainly. With each engine iteration over the last couple of years they have picked up significantly as the season progressed. Are there more advantages to staying or leaving Honda? None of us can answer that accurately, neither can McLaren who will only say "we'll have to see how we are over the next 4 races" so how any of us can be sure on their situation is beyond me. Have Zak, Eric & Mansour spoken with Mercedes?of course they have, what company of this size, in this business doesn't have probably at least 3 backup plans, does that mean they've thrown their contract with Honda out because of some coffee meetings with Lauda? Laughable. Anyway, we'll have to endure the tirade of media insanity until post-Hungary where the decisions are made real and public and in the meantime I'll be weeding through the rubbish propaganda and unprofessional, sensationalist media tat looking for Hasegawa, Zak and Eric's direct commentary.

[ronanharris09]

That's true, about the upgrade everyone knows that, but the media has successfully done their mission . . . This is what I was aware of since the pre season test, the speculation, the reputation, the heat, and that's not good for F1 itself. . .

[kaepernickus]

Looks like Honda is out next season. Mac Merc is back?
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/mclaren-p ... 1796116763

Honestly there's about two or three remarks from Brown and Boullier.
They are unhappy after 2.5 seasons of misery, so those statements are not surprising.
A split is getting more probable the longer Honda isn't able to deliver performance that's at least close to Renault, but I don't think those statements out of frustration are proof that the split is a done deal.

[etusch]

Honda's statement about news shared here or PU thread. If it is true ( I think so ) that merc deal can't be done. It is not etic if Mclaren has such a concern ( I think they have ). But they seems to send messages by media. maybe they think how louder we send message it make returns that much. Maybe they think they can push Honda boss to invest more to F1 team and Honda boss push hasegawa effecting by media.
Maybe they talked Merc about a potiential PU deal next year. I think if deal were done there would be less noise. Honda wouldn't say that we are keep partnership going. Of course they would choose to hide it until a specific time but they would do that with choosing staying in silent.
We all know that Honda works slower. They are learning and understanding things. I believe they will be better and better. This will take time. If it were another company, this period would be shorter than honda's. but in every condition it would take time. ( european brand advisers for mclaren are completely wrong. ) We can see it at Renault and Ferrari. And it takes longer at HOnda.
I think split is inevitable and good for Honda more than Mclaren. I am sure Honda will be better in 2018 than Honda in 2016. They will work with Sauber more friendly, with more team spirit and will be better then this mclaren.
Everybody talks about 3 years for Honda.This is a bit cliche but you know this is just third year of honda and 4 years erlier Honda wasn't in F1. Ferrari, which is never left F1, only could catch this year and other, the Renault, still struggling. Of course renault much better than Honda now. I was expecting from Renault to be better than merc end of this years. But things didn't work for them too. I think all these problems will give these two manufacturer opportunity of finding solutions and this solutions make them better. Of course they could foresee these kind of problems before encountered them.

[Snorked]

In the latest Japanese media report posted in the PU thread the author says Jonathan Neale is / has been in Japan to renegotiate the contract with the big bosses of Honda at the time of writing. Also on this site: http://members.f1-life.net/report/54668/ both parties want to revise their original contract, hopefully we have a native speaker who can translate the full article properly? From the web translation it mentions McLaren want performance related clauses and Honda want to scale back on the funds they give McLaren?

[OviJohn]

I'm confused at the "no indication" part. Reading only race results does not give you a clear picture. Neither does suggesting a completely different party such as VW who for all we know, be worse than Honda if they attempt this formula suddenly. All that I have seen from Honda is an impressive development pace, yes to state the obvious, their MGU-H this year is rubbish and has caused all this drama, and again they say they have the fix ready and waiting for the next component install (everyone likes to ignore this and choose the slagging route though).

Please provide us with reliable quotes for this, because since Bahrain tests the "countermeasures" had been applied. And right after Monaco GP Hasegawa states that the MGU-H can only last two races.So where is this fix?

Please help yourself: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129810

Again, if you´re kind enough please quote where does Hasegawa or any other Honda official states that the MGU-H problem is effectively solved?

Before Canada where McLaren spoke their mind, there were pages of commentary regarding their improvement with each race constantly closing the gap every GP, noticeably so. But yeah, no indication of improvement whatsoever.. This hardware is essentially what we had in Australia bar some intake updates and mapping improvements as the data comes in, so I'm confused as to why everyone changes their mind each GP

.

Coming from what ever you want to call our winter tests performance (To say the least); of course theres been "improvement"! I mean, you couldnt get a lower base for expectations after such a nightmare of pre season.

Yes the car is "more" reliable and drivable. Yes Honda is working hard...since 2014. But the big picture is that: So is every other team and manufacturer on the grid! No one stands still in F1. It´s the 3rd year of Honda in this formula, and does it seem to you that things are getting any better? The problem for fans and Mclaren staff, especially talents like Peter Prod and Alonso, is that Hondas development-improvement timeline is not meeting expectations. Talent starts leaving Mclaren and the team becomes weaker overall. Whats even worst, Honda is not providing a deadline for when things will/should get better. So how will you keep your engineering talent motivated and hungry? Hold your hands, sing kumbaya and have patience and a nice pay check? Sorry, but thats not how real life works.

We knew the update was not coming until around Baku and that's all we were told by Honda, so the only change has been the media and their various spins on it.

Until about Canada, Baku, Silverstone, Spa..."somewhere around summer" if you go by Hasegawas statements on december 2016 enterview. Pundits and forum insiders speculated aprox 6 month timeframe for "initial solutions". Good news is, as per Hasegawas latest interviews, that thanks to Canada ICE failure on Alonsos car, they will "dare" to introduce a new spec for the ICE-Turbo-MGU-H. But the point remains: It was not planned nor expected to debut here in Baku.

Yes they have zero points, please say it again it's my favourite, yes McLaren are pissed, yes Honda are embarrassed, but the facts have not changed. New engine incoming, will they be more competitive this year? Most certainly. With each engine iteration over the last couple of years they have picked up significantly as the season progressed.

When? The 100M € question! And you know what Hasegawa san answers been to this: We´re working hard (duh!) and as soon as we believe an upgrade is ready we´ll introduce it..." Yeah but When!? "As soon as its ready" ™

Are there more advantages to staying or leaving Honda? None of us can answer that accurately, neither can McLaren who will only say "we'll have to see how we are over the next 4 races" so how any of us can be sure on their situation is beyond me. Have Zak, Eric & Mansour spoken with Mercedes?of course they have, what company of this size, in this business doesn't have probably at least 3 backup plans, does that mean they've thrown their contract with Honda out because of some coffee meetings with Lauda? Laughable. Anyway, we'll have to endure the tirade of media insanity until post-Hungary where the decisions are made real and public and in the meantime I'll be weeding through the rubbish propaganda and unprofessional, sensationalist media tat looking for Hasegawa, Zak and Eric's direct commentary.

The irony of it all is that neither Zak, Eric, nor Mansour had to be having plans A, B, C to Z if Honda have been up to standards or done anything resembling a decent job for this years PU. When I say decent Id say at least slighty better than 2016 or something able to be fighting for 4th-3rd package. But no; things are worst than 2015!

Finally, I really wouldnt label a meeting by non other than Mansour Ojjeh and Zak Brown with Lauda and Wolff in the Mercedes 2nd floor area as a "coffee meeting"

All we can do is HOPE, Honda makes some breaktrough in the following weeks and that PU gets a decent amount of performance and reliability. IMO, its the only way that rumors will die down, plans will be put on hold, and most importantly give a well deserved positive outlook for the team as a whole for the remainer of the season.

[ronanharris09]

In the latest Japanese media report posted in the PU thread the author says Jonathan Neale is / has been in Japan to renegotiate the contract with the big bosses of Honda at the time of writing. Also on this site: http://members.f1-life.net/report/54668/ both parties want to revise their original contract, hopefully we have a native speaker who can translate the full article properly? From the web translation it mentions McLaren want performance related clauses and Honda want to scale back on the funds they give McLaren?

The full article needs a premium account, but another Japanese press also reported the same thing.
IMO, if everyone at the meeting agreed, looks like Honda will bring upgrade version 2.5 (not 2.1), they asked for money to secure their mission. . . But McLaren afraid of losing more . . So let's just wait and see the results. . .

[Manoah2u]

Williams won a race in 2012 with Maldonado and probably could have won in 2014 (Massa/Canada), and that's a customer team running around with sub-200M budget.

Even if moving to Mercedes power means a budget drop below 300M McLaren could at least return to winning races, and from there attract a big title sponsor.

Oh yes, I forgot about Maldonado.

A big sponsor isn't enough these days. Williams have a big old fashioned sponsor and they only manage, with all their experience and a good partnership with Mercedes, a podium here and there.

A big sponsor like Vodafone or Martini bring in around 50-60 mln dollar a year, a investor or partner (like PM, Daimler) around 200-250 mln a year.

Maldo would have won in 2014 again if he didnt leave because all the crazy acusations. Everyone
Who follewed the rumors knew Merc PU would be the winner. Surely McZakMcLaren Mercrdes could win races with ALO today.

there's something to be said from a business point of view of having a F1 championship where you have a mercedes powered team battle a mercedes powered team for the championship win - you always win.

Sure, the Mercedes AMG F1 team beating Ferrari in a straight-up fight is a good thing and advertisable.
But then, if they get beaten by Ferrari - there's not too much shame as Ferrari is Ferrari, but still - that is less positive branding. Instead, if Mercedes AMG F1 team gets beaten by Mclaren with MERCEDES engines after seeing HONDA fail completely, and have a Alonso vs Hamilton battle - THEN you have something to advertise with;

good old former partner Mclaren was nowhere with the 'competition' but then they got a Mercedes engine and WON.

Suddenly, you don't only have Mercedes AMG Petronas editions that will sell good, you also are able to make Mercedes Mclaren edition and 'Alonso' package labels on your A-class, C-class etc etc. AND Mclaren ups their sales, too.

So interestingly, with Mercedes AMG recently having won 3 world titles in a row, and possibly getting another one this year if they beat Vettel and Ferrari, then what harm is there in having a 'change' in WCC outcome in 'allowing' Mclaren to beat them ? It would not make Mercedes AMG team look bad, in the end, it IS still Mclaren after all. Force India beating them i think would be less positive compared to Mclaren. Likewise RedBull wouldn't look too good if Toro Rosso beats them. You could compare it a bit with Renault getting soundly beaten by RedBull with the same engine, albeit rebranded.

[etusch]

Oh yes, I forgot about Maldonado.

A big sponsor isn't enough these days. Williams have a big old fashioned sponsor and they only manage, with all their experience and a good partnership with Mercedes, a podium here and there.

A big sponsor like Vodafone or Martini bring in around 50-60 mln dollar a year, a investor or partner (like PM, Daimler) around 200-250 mln a year.

Maldo would have won in 2014 again if he didnt leave because all the crazy acusations. Everyone
Who follewed the rumors knew Merc PU would be the winner. Surely McZakMcLaren Mercrdes could win races with ALO today.

there's something to be said from a business point of view of having a F1 championship where you have a mercedes powered team battle a mercedes powered team for the championship win - you always win.

Sure, the Mercedes AMG F1 team beating Ferrari in a straight-up fight is a good thing and advertisable.
But then, if they get beaten by Ferrari - there's not too much shame as Ferrari is Ferrari, but still - that is less positive branding. Instead, if Mercedes AMG F1 team gets beaten by Mclaren with MERCEDES engines after seeing HONDA fail completely, and have a Alonso vs Hamilton battle - THEN you have something to advertise with;

good old former partner Mclaren was nowhere with the 'competition' but then they got a Mercedes engine and WON.

Suddenly, you don't only have Mercedes AMG Petronas editions that will sell good, you also are able to make Mercedes Mclaren edition and 'Alonso' package labels on your A-class, C-class etc etc. AND Mclaren ups their sales, too.

So interestingly, with Mercedes AMG recently having won 3 world titles in a row, and possibly getting another one this year if they beat Vettel and Ferrari, then what harm is there in having a 'change' in WCC outcome in 'allowing' Mclaren to beat them ? It would not make Mercedes AMG team look bad, in the end, it IS still Mclaren after all. Force India beating them i think would be less positive compared to Mclaren. Likewise RedBull wouldn't look too good if Toro Rosso beats them. You could compare it a bit with Renault getting soundly beaten by RedBull with the same engine, albeit rebranded.

So I am sure you have good explanation why they didn't give Redbull merc engine. At the end Redbull is one of the best team of last years with 4 consecutive title. When they beat the merc's own team they would do this with merc engine. Hasn't that a good commercial potential ?

[Redragon]

Maldo would have won in 2014 again if he didnt leave because all the crazy acusations. Everyone
Who follewed the rumors knew Merc PU would be the winner. Surely McZakMcLaren Mercrdes could win races with ALO today.

there's something to be said from a business point of view of having a F1 championship where you have a mercedes powered team battle a mercedes powered team for the championship win - you always win.

Sure, the Mercedes AMG F1 team beating Ferrari in a straight-up fight is a good thing and advertisable.
But then, if they get beaten by Ferrari - there's not too much shame as Ferrari is Ferrari, but still - that is less positive branding. Instead, if Mercedes AMG F1 team gets beaten by Mclaren with MERCEDES engines after seeing HONDA fail completely, and have a Alonso vs Hamilton battle - THEN you have something to advertise with;

good old former partner Mclaren was nowhere with the 'competition' but then they got a Mercedes engine and WON.

Suddenly, you don't only have Mercedes AMG Petronas editions that will sell good, you also are able to make Mercedes Mclaren edition and 'Alonso' package labels on your A-class, C-class etc etc. AND Mclaren ups their sales, too.

So interestingly, with Mercedes AMG recently having won 3 world titles in a row, and possibly getting another one this year if they beat Vettel and Ferrari, then what harm is there in having a 'change' in WCC outcome in 'allowing' Mclaren to beat them ? It would not make Mercedes AMG team look bad, in the end, it IS still Mclaren after all. Force India beating them i think would be less positive compared to Mclaren. Likewise RedBull wouldn't look too good if Toro Rosso beats them. You could compare it a bit with Renault getting soundly beaten by RedBull with the same engine, albeit rebranded.

So I am sure you have good explanation why they didn't give Redbull merc engine. At the end Redbull is one of the best team of last years with 4 consecutive title. When they beat the merc's own team they would do this with merc engine. Hasn't that a good commercial potential ?

So with the same logic how is gonna give Mercedes an engine that could bring victories to Mclaren?

They are are gonna brake a contract with good cash inflow to be a high middlefield team. When probably when Honda resolve its problems they are gonna be at same level probably.

So what's the point of the swap?

All of this it is preasure on Honda to accelarate to start to have results by mid summer. Otherwise Alo is gone and Zack will follow for not bringing his main sponsor as he promise.

[makecry]

there's something to be said from a business point of view of having a F1 championship where you have a mercedes powered team battle a mercedes powered team for the championship win - you always win.

Sure, the Mercedes AMG F1 team beating Ferrari in a straight-up fight is a good thing and advertisable.
But then, if they get beaten by Ferrari - there's not too much shame as Ferrari is Ferrari, but still - that is less positive branding. Instead, if Mercedes AMG F1 team gets beaten by Mclaren with MERCEDES engines after seeing HONDA fail completely, and have a Alonso vs Hamilton battle - THEN you have something to advertise with;

good old former partner Mclaren was nowhere with the 'competition' but then they got a Mercedes engine and WON.

Suddenly, you don't only have Mercedes AMG Petronas editions that will sell good, you also are able to make Mercedes Mclaren edition and 'Alonso' package labels on your A-class, C-class etc etc. AND Mclaren ups their sales, too.

So interestingly, with Mercedes AMG recently having won 3 world titles in a row, and possibly getting another one this year if they beat Vettel and Ferrari, then what harm is there in having a 'change' in WCC outcome in 'allowing' Mclaren to beat them ? It would not make Mercedes AMG team look bad, in the end, it IS still Mclaren after all. Force India beating them i think would be less positive compared to Mclaren. Likewise RedBull wouldn't look too good if Toro Rosso beats them. You could compare it a bit with Renault getting soundly beaten by RedBull with the same engine, albeit rebranded.

So I am sure you have good explanation why they didn't give Redbull merc engine. At the end Redbull is one of the best team of last years with 4 consecutive title. When they beat the merc's own team they would do this with merc engine. Hasn't that a good commercial potential ?

So with the same logic how is gonna give Mercedes an engine that could bring victories to Mclaren?

They are are gonna brake a contract with good cash inflow to be a high middlefield team. When probably when Honda resolve its problems they are gonna be at same level probably.

So what's the point of the swap?

All of this it is preasure on Honda to accelarate to start to have results by mid summer. Otherwise Alo is gone and Zack will follow for not bringing his main sponsor as he promise.

Instant results. They dont want to keep waiting for Honda to eventually get it right. With Mercedes they can be 3rd/4th fastest as soon as next year, with Honda it's all up in the air. They can produce a world beater chassis with Honda and will still be in lower midfield because the PU can't last.

[Redragon]

So I am sure you have good explanation why they didn't give Redbull merc engine. At the end Redbull is one of the best team of last years with 4 consecutive title. When they beat the merc's own team they would do this with merc engine. Hasn't that a good commercial potential ?

So with the same logic how is gonna give Mercedes an engine that could bring victories to Mclaren?

They are are gonna brake a contract with good cash inflow to be a high middlefield team. When probably when Honda resolve its problems they are gonna be at same level probably.

So what's the point of the swap?

All of this it is preasure on Honda to accelarate to start to have results by mid summer. Otherwise Alo is gone and Zack will follow for not bringing his main sponsor as he promise.

Instant results. They dont want to keep waiting for Honda to eventually get it right. With Mercedes they can be 3rd/4th fastest as soon as next year, with Honda it's all up in the air. They can produce a world beater chassis with Honda and will still be in lower midfield because the PU can't last.

So if updates are working and by September are 4th, 5th? Why the swap if engine will be same next year? With Mercedes they will not get an engine to win. At this stage with not big updates done is silly to think about swap, commercially doesn't make any sense if Mclaren doesn't have a sponsor to cover that budget hole.

[makecry]

So with the same logic how is gonna give Mercedes an engine that could bring victories to Mclaren?

They are are gonna brake a contract with good cash inflow to be a high middlefield team. When probably when Honda resolve its problems they are gonna be at same level probably.

So what's the point of the swap?

All of this it is preasure on Honda to accelarate to start to have results by mid summer. Otherwise Alo is gone and Zack will follow for not bringing his main sponsor as he promise.

Instant results. They dont want to keep waiting for Honda to eventually get it right. With Mercedes they can be 3rd/4th fastest as soon as next year, with Honda it's all up in the air. They can produce a world beater chassis with Honda and will still be in lower midfield because the PU can't last.

So if updates are working and by September are 4th, 5th? Why the swap if engine will be same next year? With Mercedes they will not get an engine to win. At this stage with not big updates done is silly to think about swap, commercially doesn't make any sense if Mclaren doesn't have a sponsor to cover that budget hole.

McLaren wont be going public with the criticism like they have if they knew that Honda could make it work. Remember there are no token system this year and a lot of people expected Honda to come good this year but they have become worse, much worse than 2015. McLaren knows a lot more than we do. They are the ones who can see what's going on at HRD. We don't. What we do is arm chair speculation , McLaren knows what it's doing more than we do. If McLaren feels that the lack of results is hurting them more than what Honda's $100mil can offset, it's because it is. The problem here is McLaren doesn't have the time to wait till September for Honda to show their hand. They need to make decision fast or they will start losing technical staff, their star driver and everything that matters.