General aero discussions

[Just_a_fan]

Why did the mercedes team continue a bad aero concept for so long. The performance on the track did not tally with the simulation models so something must be off.

did there 1/4 scale tunnel models not show porposiing and floor flexing and how the tyre disortorted under load?

You could run fea and cfd to compute how the body deflects under and aero load but it would use too much computational power.

Because they really weren't sure why the car wasn't doing what their tools said it ought to do. So they ran last year as a correlation and test exercise. They swapped directions late in the winter when they realised where some errors were but then had to run the W13 (called W14 but obviously wasn't) in a tarted-up form until the real W14 could be built.

[Mtshali_Motorsport]

So Andrea Stella released some very interesting information today...

RedBull floor concept utilizes and exploits "vertical" flow structures underneath it. Apparently, they are getting better downforce doing it. Most teams you can imagine committed to "horizontally" sweeping flow structures under the floor.

I'm not sure how to interpret this, but I imagine Adrian Newey has "double-stacked" two or more vortices vertically, one on top of the other, to build interior "curtains" running to the rear of the floor. Other teams apparently roll up vortices that are laterally beside each other instead....

Quite interesting. And you can see why Mclaren had to go back to the drawing board to exploit this as this a HUUUGE change in design if not yet a change a philosophy.

I think the so called vertical flow structures are mimicking the vertical fences on the diffusers that were a key part of the previous generation of cars.

Maybe my interpretation could be far off but hopefully someone could chime in on this.

[PlatinumZealot]

That can be true. The redbull has a low height diffuser throat. It may be lower so that vertical divising structures can be attached?

[organic]

A cool post

[vorticism]

>boringdotcom

Mark remembers a better time for brake duct modellers.

[vorticism]

Something which hasn't got much discussion yet in the '22 formula is the large flat central floor area. This is new and unique to this formula--previously (2009-2021) the lowest part of the floor (the reference plane) was not much larger than the plank.

Given now a larger % of the floor is only [plank thickness + ride height] above the track, this should explain the use of the Red Bull keel notches/steps. VGs for this lowest plane, and dialing in of the airflow at its periphery.

2009-2021:


2022-2023:

Edit: typos.

[jjn9128]

Something which hasn't got much discussion yet in the '22 formula is the large flat central floor area. This is new and unique to this formula--previously (2009-2021) the lowest part of the floor (the reference plane) was not much larger than the plank.

Given now a larger % of the floor is only [plank thickness + ride height) about the track, this should explain the use of the Red Bull keep notches/steps. VGs for this lowest plane, and dialing in of the airflow at its periphery.

2009-2021:


2022-2023:

The plank is narrower than pre-22. It used to be 300mm wide. It's now 250mm.

[vorticism]

Indeed, which also contributes to the increase in the % of reference plane area (not masked by the plank) relative to the total floor area. I estimate the max ref plane width on the RB19 to be ~800 mm.

This perhaps worth noting because the 2022 RB18 was revealed to have the widest reference plane when the floors were seen through the season (compared to Ferrari and Merc).

This center floor area is also shaped approximately like the X2014 car from Gran Turismo. So the FIA audits of Newey's hobbies may need to go back a bit further than the Valkyrie.

[jjn9128]

Indeed, which also contributes to the increase in the % of reference plane area (not masked by the plank) relative to the total floor area. I estimate the max ref plane width on the RB19 to be ~800 mm.

This perhaps worth noting because the 2022 RB18 was revealed to have the widest reference plane when the floors were seen through the season (compared to Ferrari and Merc).

This center floor area is also shaped approximately like the X2014 car from Gran Turismo. So the FIA audits of Newey's hobbies may need to go back a bit further than the Valkyrie.

Maximum width of the reference plane/boat is 750mm.
https://cad.onshape.com/documents/e62d7 ... f345c90e40

[vorticism]

+1 thanks for the link. 6% error with my web browser ocular metrology, not bad. I do think Merc & Ferrari were running narrower "boats" last year in order to smooth/straighten the path of their tunnels; at least it LOOKED that way. They've hence gone away from that.

The % of total DF from this central area might not be insignificant. Question is: is this a good feature to dial in? Does having a large area of the floor floating ~15-20mm above the track produce good downforce or is the flow inherently so limited that it's relatively WEAK compared to the tunnels/diffuser. Regardless, RB were the only one who chose to optimize structures in that area, from the beginning.

[Just_a_fan]

+1 thanks for the link. 6% error with my web browser ocular metrology, not bad. I do think Merc & Ferrari were running narrower "boats" last year in order to smooth/straighten the path of their tunnels; at least it LOOKED that way. They've hence gone away from that.

The % of total DF from this central area might not be insignificant. Question is: is this a good feature to dial in? Does having a large area of the floor floating ~7-10mm above the track produce good downforce or is the flow inherently so limited that it's relatively WEAK compared to the tunnels/diffuser. Regardless, RB were the only one who chose to optimize structures in that area, from the beginning.

If you can get the airflow to be "happy" under there, running the boat close to the track will give extra downforce. It's basically a mini version of the old flat floors from when the plank was introduced in '94.

RB's detailed work on the boat compared to other teams is very noticeable in 2022.

[PlatinumZealot]

+1 thanks for the link. 6% error with my web browser ocular metrology, not bad. I do think Merc & Ferrari were running narrower "boats" last year in order to smooth/straighten the path of their tunnels; at least it LOOKED that way. They've hence gone away from that.

The % of total DF from this central area might not be insignificant. Question is: is this a good feature to dial in? Does having a large area of the floor floating ~15-20mm above the track produce good downforce or is the flow inherently so limited that it's relatively WEAK compared to the tunnels/diffuser. Regardless, RB were the only one who chose to optimize structures in that area, from the beginning.

The shape of the flat area seems to be about guiding the lateral expansion of the flow, and the flicks/steps do some other stuff no-one other than the designers is quite yet sure of.

[vorticism]

*nudge, nudge* "And we're back."

+1 thanks for the link. 6% error with my web browser ocular metrology, not bad. I do think Merc & Ferrari were running narrower "boats" last year in order to smooth/straighten the path of their tunnels; at least it LOOKED that way. They've hence gone away from that.

The % of total DF from this central area might not be insignificant. Question is: is this a good feature to dial in? Does having a large area of the floor floating ~15-20mm above the track produce good downforce or is the flow inherently so limited that it's relatively WEAK compared to the tunnels/diffuser. Regardless, RB were the only one who chose to optimize structures in that area, from the beginning.

The shape of the flat area seems to be about guiding the lateral expansion of the flow, and the flicks/steps do some other stuff no-one other than the designers is quite yet sure of.

I think they are/were working this flat area more than other teams with those details (flow under these flat floor areas) i.e. less about the tunnel behavior; that is just my speculation, though.

[Just_a_fan]

+1 thanks for the link. 6% error with my web browser ocular metrology, not bad. I do think Merc & Ferrari were running narrower "boats" last year in order to smooth/straighten the path of their tunnels; at least it LOOKED that way. They've hence gone away from that.

The % of total DF from this central area might not be insignificant. Question is: is this a good feature to dial in? Does having a large area of the floor floating ~15-20mm above the track produce good downforce or is the flow inherently so limited that it's relatively WEAK compared to the tunnels/diffuser. Regardless, RB were the only one who chose to optimize structures in that area, from the beginning.

The shape of the flat area seems to be about guiding the lateral expansion of the flow, and the flicks/steps do some other stuff no-one other than the designers is quite yet sure of.

Those flicks/steps are somewhat reminiscent of similar structures used in similar locations on the Valkyrie:



Of course, these details were always covered up / smoothed out on the show cars, but they are there on the real thing.