2023 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, April 28 - 30

[ValeVida46]

What do you recommend? Spec cars?

Historically speaking, close competition is the exception not the norm over many different regulations periods. It is something that is inherent to the sport.

Why does a close racing Formula require spec cars?
I don't understand why highlighting a problem requires a solution from me. Perhaps a thread can be started for this so the conversation can perish there

If we're citing history, then should we also just flatly ignore the reason the rules were changed for 2022?
Since the inception of these rules we've had 26 races of which 21 were won by a single team. compared to a similar sequence of the darkest of the dominant Merc days of 22 wins in 26 races. Almost identical by every metric in terms of laps led and wins(dominance). Not only that but we're seeing a divergence in that the competition could occasionally challenge RB last year.
This year? The chasm is even wider.

Every decision has been made to not dumb down the sport, but to make it more achievable for more of the teams and to get a closer competition going on, while still leaving meritocracies so the best teams still win.
I think there will be a bit of disparity at the beginning, but we're not expecting a huge disparity. I'm confident that these rules will lead to much better racing. We only really had two drivers in the world championship and two teams in the world championship. It was a great season from the point of view of entertainment and battles, but we really would like to see more teams in that battle. -Brawn

They have emphatically failed on pretty much every aspect of this.

[AR3-GP]

Why does a close racing Formula require spec cars?

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

[renault rs26]

or f1 should stop changing the rules ,imagine if they had kept the same rule from 2021 ,we would have multible teams fighting for champion.forcing the team to use simplier suspention was not a good idea Rbr looks to have found something in that area.if you open up the rules teams have multiple avenues to attack.

Imagine if they had kept the same rule from 2020 in 2021 we'd have another mercedes domination.

Even if they kept 2021 rules we'd probably have mercedes domination as at the end of the season Mercedes was much faster than RB similarly to RB and Ferrari now.

[Big Tea]

Why does a close racing Formula require spec cars?

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

If F1 is supposed to be 'road relevant' and leading the way to develop new ideas, it is unrestricted they need to be not more knobbeled. If they were given a set 'energy load out' be it by energy type or open and told get on with it within the cost cap. There may be lower teams finding nougats then and surprising the majors. As it is now, the team with the advantage at the start of the reg. change will keep it all the way through.

[AR3-GP]

Why does a close racing Formula require spec cars?

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

If F1 is supposed to be 'road relevant' and leading the way to develop new ideas, it is unrestricted they need to be not more knobbeled. If they were given a set 'energy load out' be it by energy type or open and told get on with it within the cost cap. There may be lower teams finding nougats then and surprising the majors. As it is now, the team with the advantage at the start of the reg. change will keep it all the way through.

The same thing would happen in the "un-knobbeled" regulation set. One team finds a silver bullet innovation that is not easily copied and they run away with it. Even if the others copy them, they are a year behind.

[Big Tea]

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

If F1 is supposed to be 'road relevant' and leading the way to develop new ideas, it is unrestricted they need to be not more knobbeled. If they were given a set 'energy load out' be it by energy type or open and told get on with it within the cost cap. There may be lower teams finding nougats then and surprising the majors. As it is now, the team with the advantage at the start of the reg. change will keep it all the way through.

The same thing would happen in the "un-knobbeled" regulation set. One team finds a silver bullet innovation that is not easily copied and they run away with it.

But it may not be one of the top 3 as it has been for 3 decades

[ValeVida46]

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

Are you calling for a spec series then? Not sure where I suggested it.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

Qualifying is not reflective of race pace, which is a feature of the new rule set. Suggesting it's closer because of qualifying results is erroneous. Le Clerc was 0.150 seconds quicker in qualifying and 18 seconds behind after 17 laps once the safety car went in. That's a complete failure of what Brawn set out to do, the quote I posted says as much.
Flag waving a Ferrari pole when Red Bull destroyed the field in the race is not conducive to a close racing Formula, and I'm 100% sure you agree with that

But don't take Brawns word for it. Here's what Horner had to say after 1 season of Merc dominance(not the arbitrary 5 you seem to have proposed).

“I think that predictable and serial results, serial winning, is difficult for any sport. We were accused of it but we never enjoyed the continuation of success or longevity of success. Two of our world championships went to the last race and we never ever finished 1-2 in a world championship, and I think that inevitably with that kind of predictabilty, people get turned off and it needs a re-jig to bring it closer together”.

And as for the Dirty air topic, this year has been far worse for cars following.
As Max explained following Perez in the last race:

We were quite close but when you're following close, it's really tough.

So to my original point, the regulations were meant to address these things. And have clearly failed at it.

[AR3-GP]

Because we've never actually seen otherwise. If it wasn't 1 team dominating, it was only 2 teams dominating.

F1 has never been like Indycar, F2, and other spec series where different winners are the norm. I'm not sure it ever will be without spec cars or some form of BOP.

Are you calling for a spec series then? Not sure where I suggested it.

F1 did making staying close easier since dirty air is less than 2021. Now you just have to be patient for the different cars to converge. Ferrari was on pole last weekend. Failure is not measured over 5 months, it will be measured over 5 years.

Qualifying is not reflective of race pace, which is a feature of the new rule set. Suggesting it's closer because of qualifying results is erroneous. Le Clerc was 0.150 seconds quicker in qualifying and 18 seconds behind after 17 laps once the safety car went in. That's a complete failure of what Brawn set out to do, the quote I posted says as much.
Flag waving a Ferrari pole when Red Bull destroyed the field in the race is not conducive to a close racing Formula, and I'm 100% sure you agree with that

But don't take Brawns word for it. Here's what Horner had to say after 1 season of Merc dominance(not the arbitrary 5 you seem to have proposed).

“I think that predictable and serial results, serial winning, is difficult for any sport. We were accused of it but we never enjoyed the continuation of success or longevity of success. Two of our world championships went to the last race and we never ever finished 1-2 in a world championship, and I think that inevitably with that kind of predictabilty, people get turned off and it needs a re-jig to bring it closer together”.

And as for the Dirty air topic, this year has been far worse for cars following.
As Max explained following Perez in the last race:

We were quite close but when you're following close, it's really tough.

So to my original point, the regulations were meant to address these things. And have clearly failed at it.

1) not calling for a spec series, only suggesting that what you are looking for has only been achieved by Spec series consistently. I'm not one of the people who has called F1 boring when Ferrari, RB, or Merc was winning. I'm more enamored with what remains of the technical side of the sport. I have zero issues with the Monaco GP.

2) Horner is whining because his team wasn't winning.

3) The dirty air is not as bad as 2021. If only the FIA hadn't lifted the floor edges, the cars would not be as sensitive following one another.

[ValeVida46]

1) not calling for a spec series, only suggesting that what you are looking for has only been achieved by Spec series consistently. I'm not one of the people who has called F1 boring when Ferrari, RB, or Merc was winning. I'm more enamored with what remains of the technical side of the sport. I have zero issues with the Monaco GP.

2) Horner is whining because his team wasn't winning.

3) The dirty air is not as bad as 2021. If only the FIA hadn't lifted the floor edges, the cars would not be as sensitive following one another.

1) that may be the case for you, but for the sport to grow it needs closer racing.
2) As do all team bosses in one form or another.
3) It's actually now a bigger problem this year compared to last year, and has been compared to previous gen cars.

[AR3-GP]

1) not calling for a spec series, only suggesting that what you are looking for has only been achieved by Spec series consistently. I'm not one of the people who has called F1 boring when Ferrari, RB, or Merc was winning. I'm more enamored with what remains of the technical side of the sport. I have zero issues with the Monaco GP.

2) Horner is whining because his team wasn't winning.

3) The dirty air is not as bad as 2021. If only the FIA hadn't lifted the floor edges, the cars would not be as sensitive following one another.

1) that may be the case for you, but for the sport to grow it needs closer racing.
2) As do all team bosses in one form or another.
3) It's actually now a bigger problem this year compared to last year, and has been compared to previous gen cars.

1) Then the answer is spec because we've had about 30 years of regs changes that have not consistently led to what you hope for. What hope is there then, that this would change in another 10?
2) Yes
3) I understand that it's a bigger problem compared to last year. I wrote in my post how the floor edge change encouraged it. As to whether it's worse than 2021? No, it's not. No one has ever said that. (and while I don't recall it, if 1 driver did say it, he is only whining because his car isn't fast). Ground effect cars fundamentally are better at following than the previous generation. That's why the slip stream is weaker now than in 2021. That cannot be challenged. Slipstream strength and dirty air are fundamentally correlated.

4) We also have to take a slight grain of salt regarding #3, since drivers have a habit of making up excuses to cover up their failings to overtake another car...so following is worse this year, but maybe only 75% as bad as what the drivers claim

[Vinlarr89]

I do agree with some previous comments that something needs to be done about the tyres. One stop snoozefests does nothing as there’s no difference in strategies and everyone reverts to nursing tyres to save on stop times. Not sure we might even be better off with two dry tyre section choice for race day roughly enabling either a 3 stop on softs or 2 stop on mediums. Teams near the front would then be forced into pushing harder to pay for the 3 stop

[NL_Fer]

F2 is a spec series and those were in a train for both races as well. So the cars aren’t the only problem.

[ValeVida46]

1) Then the answer is spec because we've had about 30 years of regs changes that have not consistently led to what you hope for. What hope is there then, that this would change in another 10?
2) Yes
3) I understand that it's a bigger problem compared to last year. I wrote in my post how the floor edge change encouraged it. As to whether it's worse than 2021? No, it's not. No one has ever said that. (and while I don't recall it, if 1 driver did say it, he is only whining because his car isn't fast). Ground effect cars fundamentally are better at following than the previous generation. That's why the slip stream is weaker now than in 2021. That cannot be challenged. Slipstream strength and dirty air are fundamentally correlated.

4) We also have to take a slight grain of salt regarding #3, since drivers have a habit of making up excuses to cover up their failings to overtake another car...so following is worse this year, but maybe only 75% as bad as what the drivers claim

1) Not at all. That maybe an answer you are advocating, it isn't one I will.
Spec f1 is not the answer and never will be. I don't understand why if there is a huge gap as we see now, that the only choices are spec or continuation of status quo. That's all or nothing, when the real answer is a pragmatic approach as underlined by the engine freeze in 2014 being lifted to allow for greater development freedom during 2015 which then allowed Ferrari to close the gap considerably by 2016.
So there is precedent, which lead to convergence instead of the divergence trend we are seeing now. Change is possible, but first there needs to be some acknowledgement that something isn't working.
3) Verstappen said it, Hamilton, Sainz, and a few others too. I Don't thin Verstappen is whining because his car isnt fast enough either.
DRS on these cars was way overpowered compared to 2021 and before, which brought about a preventative measure by the FIA to shorten the DRS zone this time round and will be looking to do so at other venues too(maybe not given the borefest over the weekend).
If we look at overtaking statistics for Azerbaijan:

2016 - 80

2017 - 48

2018 - 58

2019 - 62

2021 - 27

2022 - 23

2023 - 23

There is no single correct answer here, which is why "whats your answer" is moot. If I had the right answer I wouldn't be typing this. But I'd definitely hazard a guess for everyone, the FIA and the teams to look at everything, from the tyres, to the aero, to the engines, chassis and suspensions to find measures that will actually enable the reason these rules were introduced in the first place, closer racing, overtaking(non drs style) and a spectacle for the fans rather than whimsical sprint races.
It may not even be that far away. But the point is there needs to be an appetite for some change at least and that's not forthcoming right now. Given lead times, budget contraints etc we are already way past the point the FIA relaxed the engine rules which themselves allowed for a very decent scope of change in the first place.

[AR3-GP]

1) Then the answer is spec because we've had about 30 years of regs changes that have not consistently led to what you hope for. What hope is there then, that this would change in another 10?
2) Yes
3) I understand that it's a bigger problem compared to last year. I wrote in my post how the floor edge change encouraged it. As to whether it's worse than 2021? No, it's not. No one has ever said that. (and while I don't recall it, if 1 driver did say it, he is only whining because his car isn't fast). Ground effect cars fundamentally are better at following than the previous generation. That's why the slip stream is weaker now than in 2021. That cannot be challenged. Slipstream strength and dirty air are fundamentally correlated.

4) We also have to take a slight grain of salt regarding #3, since drivers have a habit of making up excuses to cover up their failings to overtake another car...so following is worse this year, but maybe only 75% as bad as what the drivers claim

1) Not at all. That maybe an answer you are advocating, it isn't one I will.
Spec f1 is not the answer and never will be. I don't understand why if there is a huge gap as we see now, that the only choices are spec or continuation of status quo. That's all or nothing, when the real answer is a pragmatic approach as underlined by the engine freeze in 2014 being lifted to allow for greater development freedom during 2015 which then allowed Ferrari to close the gap considerably by 2016.
So there is precedent, which lead to convergence instead of the divergence trend we are seeing now. Change is possible, but first there needs to be some acknowledgement that something isn't working.
3) Verstappen said it, Hamilton, Sainz, and a few others too. I Don't thin Verstappen is whining because his car isnt fast enough either.
DRS on these cars was way overpowered compared to 2021 and before, which brought about a preventative measure by the FIA to shorten the DRS zone this time round and will be looking to do so at other venues too(maybe not given the borefest over the weekend).
If we look at overtaking statistics for Azerbaijan:

2016 - 80

2017 - 48

2018 - 58

2019 - 62

2021 - 27

2022 - 23

2023 - 23

There is no single correct answer here, which is why "whats your answer" is moot. If I had the right answer I wouldn't be typing this. But I'd definitely hazard a guess for everyone, the FIA and the teams to look at everything, from the tyres, to the aero, to the engines, chassis and suspensions to find measures that will actually enable the reason these rules were introduced in the first place, closer racing, overtaking(non drs style) and a spectacle for the fans rather than whimsical sprint races.
It may not even be that far away. But the point is there needs to be an appetite for some change at least and that's not forthcoming right now. Given lead times, budget contraints etc we are already way past the point the FIA relaxed the engine rules which themselves allowed for a very decent scope of change in the first place.

On mobile so can’t say too much but your stat is for Baku is an outlier. There are reports that consider the overtaking statistics across all GP events, in the different years and they support that the 2022 regs increased overtaking on average, even though there are outliers like you show for Baku where the trend is opposite.

As for the spec car comment, I don’t want this, to be clear. It’s just that using observation, you can see that F1 has messed about with the formula for something like 30 years, and has yet to hit the holy grail. Why are you so confident they will ever find it? I’m not. We have tried so many different things from refueling to cheese tires to moving front wings. What is left that has not been done already?

As for your engine freeze comment, again, it wasn’t until 2021 that anyone had a legal engine that could match Mercedes. That’s from a lifting of the freeze that started in 2015!

[Sofa King]

Switch to Indycar style push to pass and eliminate DRS. Consider giving reverse grid allotments with the most seconds to the last place qualifying car and least to P1. If there is a dominant team, then at least keep it interesting by having them win by 10 seconds instead of 45 plus