2023 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 30 - July 02

[ValeVida46]

I watched Lewis, Fred and Norris on-boards for the duration of the race. Both Lewis and Norris were over T9 and T10 white lines way more than has been officially listed(though Lewis did get a second pen which sort of tallies it overall).

So the drivers say they can not judge the line from the car, but you can in the onboards

Last I checked the camera mounts where much higher up than the driver eyeline.
Apologies if you find this contentious

[RZS10]

If anyone has access to the full replay of the official feed:
Norris for example was off in both T9 and T10 at the end of his lap 28 (the lap counter will show 29 at that point) - that is two track limit violations within 4 seconds.

Everyone with two working eyes could see a number of track limit violations during the race in the official feed, violations which are not noted in the deleted lap document.

With regards to the onboards: iirc this is how the FIA monitors it, there's people who watch the onboards in the "VAR" 2nd race control in Switzerland and they refer potential breaches to main race control, this is where the number of 1200 potential off tracks comes from imho.

[ValeVida46]

If anyone has access to the full replay of the official feed:
Norris for example was off in both T9 and T10 at the end of his lap 28 (the lap counter will show 29 at that point) - that is two track limit violations within 4 seconds.

Everyone with two working eyes could see a number of track limit violations during the race in the official feed, violations which are not noted in the deleted lap document.

With regards to the onboards: iirc this is how the FIA monitors it, there's people who watch the onboards in the "VAR" 2nd race control in Switzerland and they refer potential breaches to main race control, this is where the number of 1200 potential off tracks comes from imho.

Being at work my now TV pass expires in 3 hours, so cannot screen grab off work desk while boss hovers.
I checked YT briefly and there's a conspicuous absence of many onboards unfortunately.
Perhaps Juzh or anyone with an hour handy can collate it?

[michl420]

1. The rules were enforced, thats fair.
2. If tomorrow the same race happens again, I bet no one would get a penalty because they driver would just stay on track.
3. Despite it, this things must change, especially on this track, but everywhere. And possible not with a technic gimic.
I would suggest a mobile slippery surface (like astroturf). Of course the simplest thing would be grass or gravel, but it has disadvantages.

[F1PuertoRico]

Spikes can be a good deterrent

[mwillems]

Simply to take it away and leave fault at the drivers door is not a balanced outcome.

They know track limits are being enforced, so why not just leave margin to spare on every lap?

Hopefully a solution can be found to temporarily remove the outer serrated kerb and a small strip of the tarmac runoff and replace it with gravel or grass for F1 meetings, and then return the Red Bull Ring to the standard configuration for other events. Given the scale of the F1 event, making this small change for that one race meeting per year shouldn't be a big deal IMO (a bit like setting up a street circuit).

Or even a taller kerb of some kind that can be bolted in for F1 meetings? But sausage kerbs have fallen out of favour, due to their tendency to launch cars...

If they know they couldn't police 2 corners then don't police them. It wasn't going to affect safety, racing, peoples ability to overtake or track position. They should have just let it go at those corners until they had a solution for next year. Instead, this silly mess. What's irritating is that they clearly just tried to not deal with the issue and hope it just went away lol
That's why the FIA look ridiculous.

[Big Tea]

1. The rules were enforced, thats fair.
2. If tomorrow the same race happens again, I bet no one would get a penalty because they driver would just stay on track.
3. Despite it, this things must change, especially on this track, but everywhere. And possible not with a technic gimic.
I would suggest a mobile slippery surface (like astroturf). Of course the simplest thing would be grass or gravel, but it has disadvantages.

As you, I think rules are there to be obeyed and its the drivers job to do so. But, is there any point introducing rules that can not be policed? Or at least done within reasonable timeframes.
Once the podium tales place, to me it is not right to make alterations for anything other than major cheating that was not discovered until later.

Introduce the rule by all means, but also make sure they are prepared for the outcome before the race.
In 'trials' there is a marshal on the point who raises a flag for points but this relies on the stewards word being law, and once a point is given it stays no matter what.
Had there been similar here and the driver had 'instant' warning of a point, then at the end there could be no comeback as they cannot say they did not know how many they had as they would see each flag. This though was a complete fail from the start.

[Farnborough]

Those two corners 9 & 10, they should just surface it as track right to the edge of the gravel for F1, then the gravel will apply to them with the consequences that entails....just a white line and then to gravel trap.

Then for Moto-GP paint the line where it is now to define track limits.....with the F1 "apron" as their consistent safety margin before the gravel trap. They give long lap penalty etc for track edge infringement, and much more easily monitored. There's competent management of it within their rules regime already... no changes necessary.

Et Vola, two tracks in one with different characteristics.....omit the MGP line for F1, that's all.

[mclaren111]

Spikes can be a good deterrent

[Oleo]

If anyone has access to the full replay of the official feed:
Norris for example was off in both T9 and T10 at the end of his lap 28 (the lap counter will show 29 at that point) - that is two track limit violations within 4 seconds.

Everyone with two working eyes could see a number of track limit violations during the race in the official feed, violations which are not noted in the deleted lap document.

With regards to the onboards: iirc this is how the FIA monitors it, there's people who watch the onboards in the "VAR" 2nd race control in Switzerland and they refer potential breaches to main race control, this is where the number of 1200 potential off tracks comes from imho.

Yes Norris lap 28 was off track, thats why they deleted it for turn 10:
41 10 4 Lando Norris McLaren F1 Team 15:38:15 1:09.947


Of course they are not gonna delete it twice/give 2 penalties for turn 9 and 10 in the same lap.
Edit: Actually they did count turn 9 seperately as well.
69 9 4 Lando Norris McLaren F1 Team 15:38:12 1:09.947

[mwillems]

Spikes can be a good deterrent

Inside the drivers overalls are electrodes in 2 specific places (Hanging symmetrically, in some instances). Through age old methods of training and conditioning, these electrodes gently persuade the drivers that staying within track limits is certainly more preferential each time the car moves beyond track limits. Each "Penalty" induces a slightly stronger element of electrical persuasion.
Sufficient penalty is to be described as "black balling" the driver and he will be disqualified from the race and any sexual activities for the next month.

[Marble]

So, during the race itself, race control only had 3 notifications against Ocon (laps 27, 38 and 58).
So during the cool down lap, his team radio with his engineer showed they thought they were safe and Ocon did "a good job managing it".
While in fact, after the protest, he actually had 10 infringements !

He only got to know about his 1st strike (which happened on lap 27) on lap 35 (8 laps after). During this time, he was stuck behind Albon who himself kept going outside the track, so Ocon probably thought he could do it as well, until his engineer notified him on lap 32 that Alton got a black and white flag (Albon himself was only told about his 1st, 2nd, and 3 infringement on lap 31, while his first 4 infringements happened on laps 19, 20 and 25 (x2))

[RZS10]

[...]

[...]
Actually they did count turn 9 seperately as well.

Yea i noticed that as well , i checked that instance of him leaving the track against the list and expected it to be in chronological order, my bad for expecting professionalism, i guess. At least my view that it should count seprately for both corners was correct, so i'll take solace in that

I'm still sure Norris was off more often than they counted, even if just in corners they were not actively monitoring, which was visible in the live feed, but since they only checked T9 and T10 he got away with it.

This shows how inadequate their enforcement of this rule is/was - they are super pedantic about it on one part of the track but ignore it elsewhere, unless it gets reported (see Perez last year).

A reminder of what the race director's event notes state:

18) Track Limits
In accordance with the provisions of Article 33.3, the white lines define the track edges. During Qualifying, Sprint Shootout, Sprint and the Race, each time a driver fails to negotiate with the track limits, this will result in that lap time being invalidated by the Stewards. Additionally, each time a driver fails to negotiate with the exit of turn 10, will result in that lap time and the immediately following lap time being invalidated by the Stewards

It does not say "the white lines define the track edges in corner 9 and 10"

So imho it still remains a fact that there _should_ have been more penalties if they did their job properly - when Aston filed their protest the chatter was Norris would most def. get a penalty but to most people's surprise, probably also to AM's, he did not.

[KeiKo403]

The thing I hate most about these track limit things is still how inconsistent the FIA are about it. The white line defining the track at turns 9/10 is no different the white line anywhere else on the track. I don't care about the "they can't gain an advantage at turn x" I've been saying it for years now, just enforce the white lines, inside and outside of the track for the entire track, non of this race directors notes saying they'll enforce track limits at specific turns only, it's a mockery, it really is!

There should be a better deterrent and a way to make it a quicker review though. It's easy for me to say but the drivers should really do a better job, they've been allowed to be sloppy though as the FIA for years now haven't been doing a very good job in these situations, so either they decide to let it slide completely and not monitor anything at all or police it 100% completely and correctly.

Just massively annoying for fan to sit and watch 1h+ race just for the result to change after the race due to so many penalties. Maybe the cost cap should be reduced too for each penalty a driver gets, that'd soon stop it from happening. 5second in race penalty and a $250,000 reduction in cost cap allowance for the current year.

[Sieper]

How did AM know to protest this?

Did they perhaps instruct their drivers (as they would be stuck anyway) to stay well within the lines and would they (premeditated) wait for the race to end first and then ask for the review?