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I like how it is still called the Concorde agreement, even though the Concorde doesn't fly anymore and hasn't for some time.
The Concorde shows that French-British projects like the Concorde or Benetton-Renault can work very well in any case!
It's called the Concorde Agreement because the FIA headquarters are located on the "Place de la Concorde" in Paris (https://maps.app.goo.gl/53hi6fs94fakaYUf6) and probably because it also means "alignement between persons/interest, and peace" ... But it would have been cool if it had been because of the plane !
Having hit supposed development ceiling on the A523 and then on the A524 concept during dev shows they miss something about car development, is it in their simulation tools, or correlation, or a bad process in which they fail to estimate gains correctly and then develop the wrong updates ?
It's called the Concorde Agreement because the FIA headquarters are located on the "Place de la Concorde" in Paris (https://maps.app.goo.gl/53hi6fs94fakaYUf6) and probably because it also means "alignement between persons/interest, and peace" ... But it would have been cool if it had been because of the plane !
How did it happen that Alpine went from a Top 5 WCC team at the start of the regulation cycle to a backmarker team now?
Given Pat Fry wanted more investment from Renault in the team, why didn't Renault oblige to retain Fry's services?
Fry didn't say he left cause of a lack of investment. The way I understood what he said was that his peers at Alpine were content with forth. Which I understood to be that they weren't ready to do things differently and work harder.That's a complete 180 from what we hear from the top of Alpine.
Fry didn't say he left cause of a lack of investment. The way I understood what he said was that his peers at Alpine were content with forth. Which I understood to be that they weren't ready to do things differently and work harder.That's a complete 180 from what we hear from the top of Alpine.
Was that on the Grill the Grid podcast?
I look back at the first three years I was there and we improved Enstone dramatically.
Year on year, we built a better car. If you put the three cars next to each other, each one was a massive step. It's credit for everyone there, the various teams were collaborating a huge amount better. Everyone there should be proud of what we achieved in those three years.
I guess I'd gone back there with that [idea to] go back to the place you started your career and try and rebuild it ... But I didn't feel there was the enthusiasm or the drive to move forward beyond fourth.
I decided at the start of March that I want to be pushing things forward, I don't just want to sit there and not be able to do things. So for me, that was time to stop and move on really.
As a company, they weren't almost set up to push hard enough. You can say you want to be first, but the difference between saying it and achieving it is monumental, isn't it?
Fry's complaint seems to be with Groupe Renault (and their ongoing investment in the facilities he wanted to implement at Enstone) and not with the Enstone Racing Team (TM) or the work ethics of staff at Enstone Racing Team (or Viry and their employees), unless I'm mistaken.
Is Fry really referring to Enstone Racing Team or Alpine F1 Team as "the company who lacks ambition" and "unwilling to do things" (despite supposedly having all the investment needed from Groupe Renault for Fry to create superior facilities and processes to leading teams like Red Bull Racing, and Fry placing huge praise on Enstone staff?) and not referring to Groupe Renault lacking ambition and being unwilling to do things?!
When Fry refers to Wiliams as "they're willing to push" he seems to be referring to Dorilton Capital and the Williams board as "they", which suggests he WAS referring to Groupe Renault when he was talking about Alpine F1Team.
The thing that excites me about this [Williams[ opportunity is that the board is fully on board with what it's going to take to move this place forward. They're willing to invest what it takes and support us in building a team. It's a nice thing isn't, to rebuild an old British icon.
- Pat Fry
The F1 team staff are F1 team staff, they are always pushing, the idea Enstone Racing Team or Williams Racing staff wouldn't push car performance and developments to the maximum seems very unlikely IMO. Please share the quotes or interviews that shows otherwise.
Fry didn't say he left cause of a lack of investment. The way I understood what he said was that his peers at Alpine were content with forth. Which I understood to be that they weren't ready to do things differently and work harder.That's a complete 180 from what we hear from the top of Alpine.
Was that on the Grill the Grid podcast?
I look back at the first three years I was there and we improved Enstone dramatically.
Year on year, we built a better car. If you put the three cars next to each other, each one was a massive step. It's credit for everyone there, the various teams were collaborating a huge amount better. Everyone there should be proud of what we achieved in those three years.
I guess I'd gone back there with that [idea to] go back to the place you started your career and try and rebuild it ... But I didn't feel there was the enthusiasm or the drive to move forward beyond fourth.
I decided at the start of March that I want to be pushing things forward, I don't just want to sit there and not be able to do things. So for me, that was time to stop and move on really.
As a company, they weren't almost set up to push hard enough. You can say you want to be first, but the difference between saying it and achieving it is monumental, isn't it?
Fry's complaint seems to be with Groupe Renault (and their ongoing investment in the facilities he wanted to implement at Enstone) and not with the Enstone Racing Team (TM) or the work ethics of staff at Enstone Racing Team (or Viry and their employees), unless I'm mistaken.
Is Fry really referring to Enstone Racing Team or Alpine F1 Team as "the company who lacks ambition" and "unwilling to do things" (despite supposedly having all the investment needed from Groupe Renault for Fry to create superior facilities and processes to leading teams like Red Bull Racing, and Fry placing huge praise on Enstone staff?) and not referring to Groupe Renault lacking ambition and being unwilling to do things?!
When Fry refers to Wiliams as "they're willing to push" he seems to be referring to Dorilton Capital and the Williams board as "they", which suggests he WAS referring to Groupe Renault when he was talking about Alpine F1Team.
The thing that excites me about this [Williams[ opportunity is that the board is fully on board with what it's going to take to move this place forward. They're willing to invest what it takes and support us in building a team. It's a nice thing isn't, to rebuild an old British icon.
- Pat Fry
The F1 team staff are F1 team staff, they are always pushing, the idea Enstone Racing Team or Williams Racing staff wouldn't push car performance and developments to the maximum seems very unlikely IMO. Please share the quotes or interviews that shows otherwise.
This "Fry's complaint seems to be with Groupe Renault (and their ongoing investment in the facilities he wanted to implement at Enstone) and not with the Enstone Racing Team (TM) or the work ethics of staff at Enstone Racing Team " is not something Fry said. That article is speaking for Fry, it's extrapolating based on what he said about Otmar.
I'm not gonna go back and re-quote myself and an article. Go back and look for it....It had just Fry's quotes that you have in that article(minus the extrapolation).
Alpine/Renault, unlike Williams, have been investing in both plants since they've taken over 15 years ago? So their plants are not far from the best. I know their plants are way ahead of the William's plant, which Vowels said was like a 1990's F1 museum. So really it's a no brainier for Williams to upgrade. Fry also said in that quote that it wouldn't take much to take Alpine Plants to the bleeding edge.
Budget CAP
There is a budget CAP($140.4 Million USD). You might remember the Williams saga from last year? They asked the FIA if they could spend above the CAP in an effort to upgrade their facilities. They were refused. Last I read they were gonna approach the FIA in some other way but I have not read anything new. So while Williams board is saying yes yes yes, the money has to come out of the CAP. They can't spend any more money that Alpine can, it's just a question of where do you allocate the $140.4M. From what I hear Alpine are near or at the CAP.
Summary
Basically I know Fry said Alpine were happy with 4th, that Alpine didn't want to improve beyond that. I don't really know what he though were the road blocks. He never explicitly said. I just don't think it is Money cause of the CAP restrictions.
There is a budget CAP($140.4 Million USD). You might remember the Williams saga from last year? ... I just don't think it is Money cause of the CAP restrictions.
There was no budget cap between 2016-2020!
Renault have shown no willingness to win at any cost IMO. Whatever Newey and Wache want, I'm sure it is set up. Fry was IMO frustrated by an unwillingness to push the Enstone team any further beyond mid-pack by Groupe Renault. Heck Red Bull Racing decided to build engines and set up an engine factory in just two years, they made sure it happened ASAP.
Alpine/Renault, unlike Williams, have been investing in both plants since they've taken over 15 years ago? So their plants are not far from the best.
If Viry-Châtillon is very near the same level (or better) as Mercedes HPP and Honda Racing Corporation, and Enstone is very near the same level as Scuderia Ferrari and Red Bull Technologies (or better) then why is Renault's engine the worst and Alpine's chassis the worst?!
Why, even at their recent best, were they still not championship winners (or even contenders) if the facilities at both places are near enough to Mercedes, Red Bull & Honda and Ferrari?!
I don't really know what he though were the road blocks. He never explicitly said. I just don't think it is Money cause of the CAP restrictions.
Can we not extrapolate based on Fry's reputation as someone who improves processes, tools and facilities?
Pat Fry talks of upgrading the Ferrari facilities (new wind tunnel, new processes etc) circa 2012 in the Beyond the Grid podcast:
He came to Alpine to do the same IMO, which he was able to do to a point, but IMO reached a roadblock where there was no initiative from owners to further invest beyond a mid-pack level of 2022. My interpretation is NOT one of Fry complaining of staff now having championship level facilities but not being willing to push development to win the championship, when he left the team he praised Enstone staff heavily after all.
Which I understood to be that they weren't ready to do things differently and work harder.That's a complete 180 from what we hear from the top of Alpine.
You suppose it's because the staff at both state-of-the-art facilities are lazy? That's absurd IMO.
Permane was promptly hired by Visa Cash App RB as he is a good operator. Likewise Fry at Williams.
Not saying the facilities and tools are why Renault are last now and not mid-pack, but IMO it's why Fry left. The current problem is like Honda in 2007-2008, a problem of the new technical leadership not knowing what they are doing and prioritising the wrong things (NOT because the staff are lazy), despite being an OK mid-pack team in 2004-2006. Obviously there was no budget cap then, so Honda decided to build the most expensive Grand Prix car of all time to rectify this for the 2009 season ! Where was Renault's such investment from 2016-2020 when there was no cap?
There is a budget CAP($140.4 Million USD). You might remember the Williams saga from last year? ... I just don't think it is Money cause of the CAP restrictions.
There was no budget cap between 2016-2020!
Renault have shown no willingness to win at any cost IMO. Whatever Newey and Wache want, I'm sure it is set up. Fry was IMO frustrated by an unwillingness to push the Enstone team any further beyond mid-pack by Groupe Renault. Heck Red Bull Racing decided to build engines and set up an engine factory in just two years, they made sure it happened ASAP.
Alpine/Renault, unlike Williams, have been investing in both plants since they've taken over 15 years ago? So their plants are not far from the best.
If Viry-Châtillon is very near the same level (or better) as Mercedes HPP and Honda Racing Corporation, and Enstone is very near the same level as Scuderia Ferrari and Red Bull Technologies (or better) then why is Renault's engine the worst and Alpine's chassis the worst?!
Why, even at their recent best, were they still not championship winners (or even contenders) if the facilities at both places are near enough to Mercedes, Red Bull & Honda and Ferrari?!
I don't really know what he though were the road blocks. He never explicitly said. I just don't think it is Money cause of the CAP restrictions.
Can we not extrapolate based on Fry's reputation as someone who improves processes, tools and facilities?
Pat Fry talks of upgrading the Ferrari facilities (new wind tunnel, new processes etc) circa 2012 in the Beyond the Grid podcast:
He came to Alpine to do the same IMO, which he was able to do to a point, but IMO reached a roadblock where there was no initiative from owners to further invest beyond a mid-pack level of 2022. My interpretation is NOT one of Fry complaining of staff now having championship level facilities but not being willing to push development to win the championship, when he left the team he praised Enstone staff heavily after all.
Which I understood to be that they weren't ready to do things differently and work harder.That's a complete 180 from what we hear from the top of Alpine.
You suppose it's because the staff at both state-of-the-art facilities are lazy? That's absurd IMO.
Permane was promptly hired by Visa Cash App RB as he is a good operator. Likewise Fry at Williams.
Not saying the facilities and tools are why Renault are last now and not mid-pack, but IMO it's why Fry left. The current problem is like Honda in 2007-2008, a problem of the new technical leadership not knowing what they are doing and prioritising the wrong things (NOT because the staff are lazy), despite being an OK mid-pack team in 2004-2006. Obviously there was no budget cap then, so Honda decided to build the most expensive Grand Prix car of all time to rectify this for the 2009 season ! Where was Renault's such investment from 2016-2020 when there was no cap?
The discussion was about why I don’t think Money is the problem. If you go back over the years you'll see where Alpine/Renault have upgraded their wind tunnel, added one of those simulators where you have a chassis you can put the PU in and have exposed to all the vibrations it would normally be exposed to. Just to name a few.
So
1 - They have better plants than Williams.
2 - Their is a CAP that limits how much they can spend and they're already spending that
3. In Fry's words, they don't want to win. Their goal seems to be 4th.
I'm saying, I don't think money is there issue since the CAP. It's no doubt, money was a performance differentiator for them prior to the CAP.
ALPINE SALE RUMOURS EMERGE AMID KEY RENAULT DEMAND
Alpine’s disappointing start to the Formula 1 season has already fuelled talk that its parent company Renault could consider offers to sell the squad.
The reasons are very complex, and it is not surprising that its situation has prompted talk that parties are interested in a takeover. It is a market law that you buy when a company value is at its lowest.
And according to information gathered in the Suzuka paddock, one of the conditions of the sale of the team is the stipulation that the Renault power unit continues to be used for a specified number of seasons – believed to run until 2029.
This would ensure a future for the group of engine engineers who are already working on the new turbo hybrid power unit which will debut in 2026.
However, this constraint of using the Renault engine could reduce the number of potential buyers - since some interested parties want to involve the use of their own power units or those of other manufacturers with which there are already links.
I am surprised by the lack of investment into this brand and race team.
I would not be wrong in thinking Renault could fund this project with the many partners it has, like this one;
In July 2023, Renault announced it had spun off its ICE and hybrid powertrain operations into a Horse-named subsidiary based in Madrid, Spain. Geely was set to join later by integrating its Swedish powertain division (Aurobay) and various Chinese operations and merging them both with Horse into a holding company owned by Renault and Geely, with Aramco a potential late investor.[3] Later that same month, the two companies signed a binding agreement for the creation of the venture holding, with Renault operations initially headquartered in Madrid and Geely's in Hangzhou. Both Geely and Renault are set to transfer their intellectual property for ICEs and hybrid systems to the venture holding. The venture holding is set to be established and start operations in the second half of 2023, pending regulatory clearances, and its main headquarters would be in the United Kingdom
Think it was 2022 that Alpine came out and said they were willing to sell part or all of the team to fund Alpine opening dealerships all over the world. They sold 24% last year....Not sure how this is any different.
Last edited by diffuser on 11 Apr 2024, 04:06, edited 1 time in total.
A few days ago I was looking for information about Renault as a company. I did it after my last message precisely because I didn't understand Renault's problems.
And I was surprised: they have reduced their production capacity significantly; they believe that they have a manufacturing cost overrun of 30% (this left me stunned) and they also have a class action lawsuit against them by those affected by a defective street model engine that equips "hundreds of thousands" of cars.
To give serious data I have recovered the information about the defective street engine. It is the 1.2 TCe gasoline engine. They were installed in numerous Renault models but also in some Nissan and Mercedes models. The matter began in 2019 but until the middle of last year things were half stopped, apparently.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
- I understand keeping the historical Viry and engine work for 2026 that has already started.
- BUT it make no sense to sell Enstone, I mean, they already sold 24%, and I believe it is now a zero cost situation, am I wrong ? I think the balance is not negative anymore and the chassis side is costing zero to them (like Mercedes)
But I also understand (like Mercedes again) that they could sold another 24% or much more while remaining in F1.
It could easily be " Something / Alpine / F1 Team"
