Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
yesterday on the R27B thread, based on a precious few sources. On the launch of the R27, Bob Bell indicated to Autosport that they had increased leverage to play with the center of gravity (lighter car, more ballast). What they would've liked to have more of was potential downforce to the front, even if they thought they had achieved "just enough". Autosport indicated, if I read it correctly, that since generally the center pressure of the vehicle must be very close to the center of gravity (behind, within a few percentage points of the chassis' lenght), this meant a reduced ability to play with different setups.
This week I read somewhere (seem to have misplaced the link ...) that Dino Toso had recently indicated they're working on a higher downforce front wing. Speculating that they want to achieve this without added drag (at least in direct proprtion to the DF gain), the option "Implant zero keel on current chassis" with a new higher df front wing/front end could very well come into question. This would be roughly in line with Pat Symonds' remarks (from Renault's own website) also:
What is the team doing in order to try and gain performance relative to the competition?
PS: Working extremely hard! It means asking a lot of questions, and finding answers to them. We can schedule which questions we ask, and when, but we cannot schedule when we will find the answers. It means working diligently and honestly to find the root of our current difficulties. And at the same time, we have to keep on developing the car to compete at the track. If we simply throw our resources blindly at fixing the problems, by the time we have resolved them, we will only have fallen behind again.
The obvious question to ask is “what is the cause of your problems?” Do you have an answer?
PS: I think it is obvious to say that it is not a simple diagnosis. The first mistake we could make would be a knee-jerk reaction. The people working on the situation, are the same people who won two world championships in the last two years. We have the same tools, the same methodology, and the same confidence in our ability to succeed. Now, we need time and application to do so – and I have every faith in our capacity to bounce back strongly.
I think if they were to go to the bother of a new car, it may be the classic 'jumping from the frying pan and into the fire' scenario. By the time they get the new car ready, they'd be out of title contention anyway, so I can't see why they would want to do this.
I think they should just try to get the best out of the package they have, but start to concentrate more on the '08 car, so they least have a better chance next year. Trying to implant a zero-keel design on a V-keel designed car, is a big no-no. This can only be a feasible option if they were to design a car from scratch, around the zero-keel design, to take full advantage from it and I've already stated that this would be suicide for Renault.
Finally I got the proof for what they'll do - They'll cut costs from usual 1/3 to 1/33 of what other teams spend.
Look:
This is wallpaper from Renault site showing R27
I guess that same guy who "designed" new livery made this wallpaper too.
It is edited photo of Alono driving R26 last year in Paul Ricard, painted ING livery, Alonso's helmet is replaced by Fisichella's, tyres on it are Michelin, mirrors are not even from R26, and worst of all, engine in the right corner is V10 with rear end exhaust which takes us long way back. All that's missing are skirts from 1979 car, turbo charged V6 and Williams' active suspension.
I'm trying to understand what is going on with the team this season and amateur stuff like this only makes me more and more confused.
Last edited by manchild on 14 Apr 2007, 23:50, edited 1 time in total.
I'm wavering in my already feeble opinions about Renault's potential choice of tactics for the "remaining" season. One could take the cue from how McLaren, on hindsight, propably got on form for this season.
They had secured ample sponsorship (largely in the form of Vodafone) a year or so before this season started. They had at least one, very likely two (with Dennis's protégé Hamilton yet portrayed as a “future” candidate), new drivers lined up and had ample time to prepare for the arrival of all the new elements. Including Bridgestone, the representative of which curiously went as far as commending McLaren's effort very soon after they became the sole supplier.
The remarkable thing was, that once McLaren finally put Bridgestones on their 2006 car, it proved to be faster in relation to others than on Michelins. Coincidence? Fluke? I think not. To me it appears plausible that Woking simply took a take-no-prisoners decision to concentrate on 2007 by the end of 2005 already. The motivation was there, the means were there, and McLaren has certainly never been short of will in finding a way. If I take a mechanistically calculating perspective on it, I can understand that under such conditions an investment too large for the 2006 campaign would’ve seemed as a distraction. There was lackluster fighting talk through 2006, but something was amiss, seriously wrong and it showed. Raikkonen and Montoya obviously weren’t completely informed, drivers who had shown their caliber time and again had to be first mystified, then frustrated by the team's suddenly meager development capabilities.
Very soon, they may have already had their suspicions, too. Kimi was luckier in having a remaining connection to Ferrari (and their continuing interest) from his early Sauber days, so he had something to look forward to. Juan Pablo was more unfortunate in having fewer teams on offer - and, what's more, his temperament may have masked the real root cause of the team's "troubles".
Unscrupulous? Certainly, especially considering that if McLaren's sights were firmly on 2007 at the time, the style of Montoya's exit from the team made sure that they wouldn't have to face him in the ranks of another team in the future. Effective? From the looks of it, at least in short term, yes. Certainly a master political strike from Alonso's managers, who, witnessing just how important the role of the tyre supplier was for their ”Michelin man” at Renault, certainly were under no illusions on what the main requirements of a succesful title chase are. Plus, Fernando’s main rivals from 2005 were compromised for 2006, until he was to take the place of either one.
The early driver decisions stunned many and must have required a lot of co-ordination and planning in areas that far surpass mere driver considerations. Or believe who may that such things come together by chance alone ... but showing that the world of F1 isn’t without innate irony, Lewis (“the Force is great with this one”) Hamilton has proven himself to be so fast right off the bat that the team most certainly has to improvise anyway. The best laid plans ... success is elusive, but not as elusive as understanding the repercussions of obtaining it.
Contrast McLaren’s preparedness with Renault’s, who had to stretch every development resource in their title fights right up to the end of 2006 with the Michelins. Of course they’re reeling and playing catch-up at this point. The question is, what is the most succesful way of regaining competitiviness? A continuous push, or a step back and a realignment of plans? They, too have a new long time sponsor, and one Piquet Jr. biding his time on the sidelines, waiting how the driver situation within the team evolves. Having a good engine, they can certainly race well enough without being completely embarrased even if they upgrade the design only moderately.
In that light, they could well “do a McLaren”, race with what they’ve got in 2007 and really concentrate on developing the R28 from this moment on. Maybe my imagination took off a bit there, but then again, often it takes someone who first imagines something before anything can actually happen anyway.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
isn't it odd how the perception of renault all through last year was that when alonso finished his contract they would be back in the midfield - and that is exactly what happened.
Not saying that it is entirely him - but you can half imagine that when they were designing the 2007 car on a late night they just thought, "it's only going to be driven by fisi blaming the flu/tiredness/old age... what's the point?"
The whole world knew this year they'd be --- - and they are...
waynes wrote:first off they need to ditch Fisichella
go from there
yes and I think the team should hire chuck norris right now.
seriously please don't keep bashing Fisi again and again because of his poor perf against Alonso in the past years. It's the past now. To stay honnest, we have to look at driver's their performance in the current championship, as every year is a new challenge. And since Melbourne, Giancarlo has done quite a good job.
It's not just beating Heikki, because the comparison is pointless for now, it's more about the way he keeps it constant round after round, extracting the better from the (worryingly slow) car.
THE CAR is the problem, the R27 doesn't work on the BS tyres, for some reasons that we obviously cannot reach, even Renault seems to struggle to understand the cause of the trouble.
We can just guess, from the suspectly exclusive choice of v-keel, to the engine and transmition, but based on the data we have right now, the drivers aren't the problem.
BTW, I can't vote, I think the team will developp the current car agressively, maybe nearly as much as calling it a B car (indeed the possibility of changing keel design or front suspention layout etc), but it won't be a new car. The team is famous for it's tightly run budget.
Interesting points checkered, most makes sense. Renault do have a limited budget, and being involved with a fierce battle last year for the titles took away resources for development for '07. And most likely, once McLaren could not get Kimi to commit to their team (early in the season) a decision was reached to put a lot of effort into preparing for '07.
With the introduction of the standardized Bridgestones, there seems to be a magic balance between wheelbase, center of gravity, and center of aero downforce. Some have got it right, like Ferrari, BMW, and McLaren, while others like Renault and Honda have missed the mark.
I believe the V-keel has the proper geometry has the abilty to deliver good mechanical grip, but it compromises the ability to deliver enough aero downforce.
The entire front end needs a major redesign, the front suspension most likely will abandon the V-keel in favor of a zero keel that allows more downforce with less drag, additionally moving the center of aero downforce forward. With that the wheelbase will be adjusted too, most likely lengthening it.
But at what cost? Battling Ferrari and developing the R26 last year has handicapped their progress this year. If they have to devote resources towards fixing their current car, some program somewhere will suffer. Renault do not have the resources to keep all programs moving forward while adding a fix to their agenda. So most likely development on the current version will stop, and we shall see little progress until the fix is done.
they are missing the alonso affect, when alonso was out wining races for renault, fisi typically finished around in the 4-6th place places. If alonso was still racing for renault i would expect to see him on the podium.
Additionally flav missed out on the drivers market when alonso made his choice to go to mclaren and got stuck with a rookie and a numpty.
wazojugs wrote:they are missing the alonso affect, when alonso was out wining races for renault, fisi typically finished around in the 4-6th place places. If alonso was still racing for renault i would expect to see him on the podium.
Indeed, add 3 to 6 places on Fisichella's result and that's where Alonso would be. Fisichella is taking more-less same positions as he did in 2006 and 2005. There isn't much difference between being 5th or 7th or 9th.
I disagree Dave, Ferrari seems to do as well. Lets face it they put a greater proportion of their effort and resources on the final part of the 2006 season on their car, than Renault did, and look where they are now. It's even more amazing as the Ferrari has far less in common with its predecessor than the R27 to its, especially with the switch from single to zero keel, which certainly will require more effort than a simple evolution of the single player.
Talk about it being dificult to make a reliable car into a fast car.
I kind of wish Renault was higher up on the grid, just a tad, just so that all of us could get rid of the impression that the only reason they won the championships was because of Alonso. (I"m not a big fan this guy!)
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And a question about the Renault F1 cars, is R27 for "Renault 2007"? And respectively each year? I was under that impression, but I'm not completely sure about it.
mx_tifosi wrote:And a question about the Renault F1 cars, is R27 for "Renault 2007"? And respectively each year? I was under that impression, but I'm not completely sure about it.
Yes, R is mark for chassis while RS is mark for engine. But that is like that only since 2003 I think.
