max wants to bring back overtaking

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RH1300S
RH1300S
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In all seriousness, I think they should allow full underbody aero again.........BUT, restricted

The problem with high corner speeds they were getting (and god knows what would happen now!) was due to the efficiency of the venturi BECAUSE the skirts sealed well.

Allow a venturi shape under-body but restrict the skirts to a fixed measurement ABOVE the reference plane/plank. That way there will be a big leak of downforce.

Wings - limited front and rear to quite small single plane elements - just enough to trim the balance of the car. In fact make them very small, but allow dynamic adjustment.

Other body add-ons to be very tightly controlled.

All this should (IMHO) give "cleaner" downforce, which will let the cars run close together (with adjustable trim aero - perhaps they could adjust the balance in dirty air) and also make it easier to control corner speeds if need be (just raise the skirt height relative to the reference plane).

Give back large slicks and get the track width back up to pre-grooved tyre days (was it 2M overall car width - i.e. 200mm more than now).

Free up the engine regs (maybe 1 litre forced induction and a normally aspirated equivalency) - limit fuel flow (not amount carried as we get cars running dry during races). With the limited downforce, although engines might make 1000bhp - it would be hard to use on many tracks so I don't see speeds rising that much (also braking distances will increase with more speed and less downforce ;))

Allow energy recovery systems, which will add to the car's power potential without taking more fuel through the limiter. HOWEVER - reduce minimum weight limits, this way engineers need to decide if energy recovery is more efficient than simply saving more weight.

captainmorgan
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Limiting fuel flow doesn't do much to provide efficiency incentives, all the teams would probably just fuel all the cars heavier in Q3 and at the race start. Cars running out of fuel during the race can be avoided by regulations for WC point or time penalties. Or even a penalty where a section of car is painted black, so the car loses advertising for the next race.

Isn't the problem with underbody aero that if too much emphasis is placed on it, the cars are more likely to spin off or go airborne during an off-design accident?

manchild
manchild
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There is simpler way to reduce power - no refueling & tank capacity limited to 150 liters. End of story. All types of engines allowed.

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Ciro Pabón
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Sorry, Manchild, all I've got is ten years, I have no data on overtakings before 1997. About underbody aero, I think that, like we say in spanish, captainmorgan "has more reason than a saint".

Anyway, I don't know if this is resignation or pragmatism (you never know! :)). So, if you still believe that anything can change overtaking radically, then let me show you the averages for drivers last year. This is a more compelling story, or, at least, it can attract a couple of responses. First, the data (note: I'm leaving Kubica, and some other guy I don't remember now, out of this, they ran in few races, even if Kubica has a monster average of 4 overtakes per race, maybe a statistical blip):

Image

Now, my extremely long opinion:

Evidently, a driver in Formula One accomplishes one overtaking per race, if lucky. This means F1 is a sport where most of the points are given at the qualy.

This could mean that the drivers are marvels of consistency, great wizards of coherence. They extract every drop from the car lap after lap; they have raced for ten, twenty, thirty years. We are talking about guys that manage to have a 4% difference in qualy, between the best driver in the best car and the moron in the horse-sleigh, as I’ve posted elsewhere.

We could, caricaturizing some recipes from other members of the forum, hamper somehow drivers, like if they couldn’t learn to use a gear lever. I think this kind of mistakes tended to appear when amateurs and princes drove F1 cars. These days are gone. ;)

I’d say we are trying to understand extra- good drivers that have to make excuses when their accomplished time fall 2 or 3 tenths of a second under team predictions, which is roughly 10 meters. If we superimposed two laps on our TV, the car wouldn’t shift more than 5 to 15 meters between a lap and the other, barely a car length along the whole track. I dare you to do that on GP Legends or whatever. :)

It seems, from the "pecking order" of the graph, that some guys are not necessarily better than others for overtaking. I’d say, theorizing, that they simply manage to "put a foot in mouth" during qualification more frequently and, as a result, find easier to regain the missing position on race. Or this is my conclusion seeing Massa, Ralph Schumacher, Fisichella, de la Rosa, Rosberg, Speed, Monteiro, Button and Albers at the top.

Now we find Michael that, whatever you say about him, knew a couple of things. This tells me that there must be some differences due to the driver.

However, at the other end, among the people that overtake the less, we find guys like Barrichello and Webber that, perhaps, could be without enough incentives to overtake, or guys like Alonso or Räikonnen that maybe don't overtake that much because they are "wizards of qualy".

The differences are small: from three overtakes in two races to two overtakes in three races; from Massa, “king of overtaking in 2006” to Alonso, worst over taker in that year.

I repeat: one overtake in one race in average, if lucky. It’s not like a sport where long queues of cars are formed, desperately trying to overtake each other, restricted by regulations!

Mars is calling Earth: one overtake in one race. Got it, dear earthlings? Comply or risk being destroyed. Resistance is futile. :)

Seriously, I believe that tinkering all you want with F1 won’t change overtaking behavior too much. Since year 2000 FIA and GPMA have changed qualy method, tires, engines, drivers (at least a generation has come and go), tripled the amount of money, minimize risk for drivers as humanly possible, tuned regulations and changed financial and arbitrage institutions to no avail: we still have one overtake per race per driver.

You have to take in account the good drivers, the consistency, the well established pecking order between teams, the evident narrowing of qualy times in the last decades and the financial might that you need to afford an F1 car. I’m afraid that, if we don’t change the tracks, by making them a place where overtaking is easier, we will not see many changes, at least, changes that are worth the effort.

Of course, it goes without saying, changing tracks into ovals, Indycar or CART style, would be incredibly stupid. Shall we try a track 20 meters wide? I won’t delve again into the subject, but data shows you have 10 overtakes at aging Monaco or Catalunya and 30 at modern Bahrain or China.

Or (sorry, this is just a joke) should FIA tie one hand of the drivers behind their backs, use 2,000 hp power surges available on cars, and regulate mandatory tires made of plasticine (clearly marked with double white bands) to make the sport more enjoyable?

So… what do you think? ;)
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 06 Jun 2007, 05:25, edited 4 times in total.
Ciro

Mikey_s
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Ciro, another great post (rant!),

Another reason that Alonso is tha the bottom and Michael is only middle is that they tend to be at the front of the pack and lack opportunities to overtake coz there just isn't anyone in front of them?

Secondly, the teams have invested heavily in technology to minimise errors; Traction control being one example; obviously you can't give a 21 year old 800bhp without putting some safety control on the car... ! The technology reduces the mistakes that would let another car have a go at him.

Finally, there has to be something wrong when a car must be MUCH faster to get past.

Back atcha :wink:
Mike

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Ciro Pabón
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Mikey_s wrote:Finally, there has to be something wrong when a car must be MUCH faster to get past.
Thanks, Mickey. Rant, rant... I see no rant. Nothing to see here, move along... :)

Now, about something being wrong, let me ask you: have you ever tried to overtake a car at 250 kph? People like me, cowards at the bottom of our hearts, people that complains if scratchs a finger with a fork and that cries when insulted, understand well how hard is to overtake. That fear is healthy AND it does not include the fear that can instill in our weak souls a maniac mutant like Montoya all over the track... :lol:

That's why I still believe that the only way to overtake at a gazillion kilometers per hour is when you provide a track where all you have to do is to move the steering wheel a few degrees and tap gently the brake on the entrance. That's the NASCAR method and they know well why it works. Other aspirations, about cars overtaking happily at Rascasse while zooming like madmen, are unreal, no matter what you do, bar changing F1 cars by regular karts.

Finally, I agree with Manchild. Manchild for president! :) I love the old lady (Formula One) the more she keeps herself in shape through the ages, without plastic surgeries and without old lovers telling us that she has to change.

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Ciro

modbaraban
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Ciro, how come you don't have a column on this site (yet)?

no kidding! Tomba, look at those posts! :)

RH1300S
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Great taste in women too :D

Carlos
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Look how she turns light to warmth, life to fragrant dew - that yearns to be gathered on fingertips to sooth parched lips. Thy name is woman. Red and Italian too - Very nice portrait Ciro :wink:

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Ciro Pabón
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Well, thanks, modbaraban, you're very kind, but I'm afraid Tomba and Principessa are in a class apart. Yes, I agree with RH and Carlos: THAT would be my banner if I were a tifosi (we all are at the bottom of our hearts, even at the "very, very, very, very" bottom, like manchild :)).

BTW, have you ever seen Miss Loren on a Ferrari advertising? I don't, but I assume she must have made them. Maybe this is the way I would photoshop that picture for a tifosi banner, but I'm going out of thread. Anyway, Manchild, please, give it a try, I know you can do better than this: ;)

The true spirit of Italy
or
Who could overtake this woman?
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Ciro

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mini696
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 02:34

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Ciro Pabón wrote: Image
A few quick points I take from this.

Medium difference between worst and best is only 0.6 overtakes per race (less than one is hardly ground breaking).

Alonso
- Qualified at front a lot therefore little chance to overtake.

Webber
- Qualified his cars higher than they should be therefore would likely go backwards before going forwards.
-Blew up in most races therefore had fewer chances to overtake.

Can't be buggered looking at the stats for the other driver, and I don't care, but a graph like this (albeit nicely put together, so thanks for the effort) tells us nothing.
Ciro Pabón wrote:Evidently, a driver in Formula One accomplishes one overtaking per race, if lucky. This means F1 is a sport where most of the points are given at the qualy.
Doubtful, with pitstop strategy, breakdowns etc quali doesn't dictate race points.

modbaraban
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mini696 wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:Evidently, a driver in Formula One accomplishes one overtaking per race, if lucky. This means F1 is a sport where most of the points are given at the qualy.
Doubtful, with pitstop strategy, breakdowns etc quali doesn't dictate race points.
I agree with this. Pit stop stategy does a lot.

manchild
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:wink:

Image

tf1
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I think it's pretty easy to increase overtaking. They just have to increase the likelyhood of a driver making a mistake, not lower the overall performance of a specific aspect of the car.

I think one of the easiest ways to do this is to add a clutch pedal and a shift lever. The cornering speeds are almost guaranteed to drop because the drivers have to do a lot more. Plus it'd be more entertaining because it would require a lot more skill. I'd like to see these new kids go through the Swimming Pool at monoco while having to worry about shifting (not just flicking a finger). Only then will I accept that these guys could have hung with Aryton.

modbaraban
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tf1 wrote:I think one of the easiest ways to do this is to add a clutch pedal and a shift lever. The cornering speeds are almost guaranteed to drop because the drivers have to do a lot more. Plus it'd be more entertaining because it would require a lot more skill. I'd like to see these new kids go through the Swimming Pool at monoco while having to worry about shifting (not just flicking a finger). Only then will I accept that these guys could have hung with Aryton.
this is rediculous, I'm sorry but I've heard this when they banned fully automatic gearbox. :roll: