TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

[WhiteBlue]

there are no road going equivalents of 2013 F1 engines

The whole relevance discussion is based on the assumption that racing engines and road car engines are somehow connected. You seem to believe that there is a connection. Personally I believe that there is one because the manufacturers have pointed out again and again that that the engine technology used in F1 is important for them. If the technology in F1 broadly matches what they promote for road cars they are more inclined to invest into F1 and use it as advertising instrument. So the equivalents of the NA V8s are the multi cylinder road car engines which Ferrari and Mercedes have in their sports car programs. Naturally there are big differences in technology but that argument has to be made for every case.

.. the FIA have set up the 2013 engine as a straw man so they can easily knock him down
GDI does not belong to the FIA, or even to the turbocharged engine.

I must admit that I simply do not understand this language and the grammar you use. The objectives of the FiA with the 2014 regulations have been explained very openly. Firstly they wanted a mechanism that would automatically lead to curbing of the power and promote sustainability in motor sport. The switch from air restriction to fuel restriction filled that bill.
Secondly they wanted an engine type that filled the requirements of the manufacturers that would potentially engage in a supply program. They did endless consultations over that issue and reached a difficult compromise with the teams and the commercial rights holder to get the engine the manufacturers wanted. GDI, turbos, or variable valves are no direct objective that concerns the FiA. So your comment is not understandable to me.

there are no NA fans in my house, I have consistently praised the 2014 rules
I have commended their potential to boost low-end torque (to match the NA) by electrically motoring the turbocharger assembly
and their potential for recovering free power equal to about 10% of crankshaft power

This is another thing I do not understand. You say that you are happy with the turbo compounded engine. I'm glad to hear that because I also like it. But you seem to have some beef with the move which is unclear.

the peak oil minded are most distressed by real-world shortfall from ever-better official economy/CO2 figures
real-world economy will not come from even 120 bhp engines when we only use 10-20 bhp 99.5% of the time

This is also not understood. What do the economy figures and the way the industry measures them have to do with the thread issue? I think it is entirely disconnected.

[ParanoiD]

just read this thread and realized it was posted about 5 years ago

how amazing that what you guys talk about here are very close to what happen in the reality.

Hats off for you guys, i learnt alot! cheers

[autogyro]

just read this thread and realized it was posted about 5 years ago

how amazing that what you guys talk about here are very close to what happen in the reality.

Hats off for you guys, i learnt alot! cheers

There are guys on this forum with technical expertise that goes back almost to the stone age.
It is without doubt the best F1 forum for technical debate, with polite and sensible posters most of the time.
The admin is second to non.

[Scuderia Nuvolari]

Is the turbine of the new TERS also connected to a compressor as on normal turbocharged engines? (= it both boosts air pressure into the cylinders and provides additional power as KERS does)
Or is it only linked to the electric system that stores energy into batteries? (with no compressor)

You basically have a conventional turbo design with the turbine on steroids. It is over sized in order to extract all the energy from the exhaust gas that can be extracted. Naturally the compressor alone could not handle all the power and torque of that turbine. To make use of the excess energy not needed to drive the compressor there is a motor/generator unit attached to the turbo shaft which runs at full speed of the turbo. This MGU-H can run in motor mode and spool up the compressor to avoid turbo lag. But mainly we expect the MGU-H to harvest electrical energy which will be directly transferred to the second MGU-K to push the car. The MGU-K is the unit that previously was called KERS. From next year on it will be run in continuous mode all the time when the throttle pedal is pushed. KERS buttons will be abolished. So the combination of the turbine, the MGU-H and the MGU-K will build a hybrid electric turbocompounder.

With this added mass to the turbine shaft (mgu-h) , won't it stay spooled up longer, at deceleration?
Are you are saying that the mgu-h will turn up to 125000 + or- rpm with the turbine?
It's really commendable that Honeywell has stepped right up to the plate at this stage of development.
What amazed me is that they have machines that turn 400000

[dragosmp]

With this added mass to the turbine shaft (mgu-h) , won't it stay spooled up longer, at deceleration?
Are you are saying that the mgu-h will turn up to 125000 + or- rpm with the turbine?
It's really commendable that Honeywell has stepped right up to the plate at this stage of development.
What amazed me is that they have machines that turn 400000

It will slow down even faster because the H can put negative (regen) torque on the turbo shaft, and afaik it will turn as fast as that if the turbo goes that fast. I have seen too machines that go to may hundred of thousands RPM, but that's generally at low power and/or with magnetic frictionless bearings (guess bearing isn't the right word for that).

[trinidefender]

With this added mass to the turbine shaft (mgu-h) , won't it stay spooled up longer, at deceleration?
Are you are saying that the mgu-h will turn up to 125000 + or- rpm with the turbine?
It's really commendable that Honeywell has stepped right up to the plate at this stage of development.
What amazed me is that they have machines that turn 400000

It will slow down even faster because the H can put negative (regen) torque on the turbo shaft, and afaik it will turn as fast as that if the turbo goes that fast. I have seen too machines that go to may hundred of thousands RPM, but that's generally at low power and/or with magnetic frictionless bearings (guess bearing isn't the right word for that).

Frictionless? They cannot be frictionless. Unless you somehow broke the laws of physics. When you say magnetic bearings I assume the shaft is supported in a magnetic field like how the maglev train is. Yet even there, there is friction because you require energy to move a metal through a magnetic field.

The only other way it can be "frictionless is if you turned it into a sort of electric motor which balances out the rotational forces and keeps the shaft suspended.

[wuzak]

A magnetic bearing will be frictionless, in a vacuum, because there is no contact and, thus, no friction.

Electromagnetic effects are not friction.

[dragosmp]

Frictionless? They cannot be frictionless. Unless you somehow broke the laws of physics. When you say magnetic bearings I assume the shaft is supported in a magnetic field like how the maglev train is. Yet even there, there is friction because you require energy to move a metal through a magnetic field.

The only other way it can be "frictionless is if you turned it into a sort of electric motor which balances out the rotational forces and keeps the shaft suspended.

I haven't said lossless, just frictionless. It is exactly that, a sort of electric motor. This system has the awesome property at high speed of dumping whatever losses it creates in the stator that is easily cooled. Regular bearings dump calories in the rotor too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_bearing

A magnetic bearing will be frictionless, in a vacuum, because there is no contact and, thus, no friction.

Electromagnetic effects are not friction.

+1

[riff_raff]

Electromagnetic bearings are actually well suited for an application like a turbocharger where shaft speeds are very high and loads are very modest. Unfortunately, magnetic bearings are also quite bulky and expensive. The difference in turbocharger bearing losses between magnetic and journal bearings is nowhere near enough to justify the huge additional cost and complexity of a magnetic bearing system.

[michl420]

In the last days i read many about the new reglement and i realist something i never read somewhere. All energy that can be harvest with the TERS can be driven through the KERS to the rear axle. The only Limit are 120 kw, but it can be used the hole lap. Maybe it's old stuff, but maybe it's interesting for someone.

[JoeSmith]

Been reading this forum for few years but this is my first post / question here

Is it legal to use TERS to power a powerfull fan and use it to blow the diffuser ?.

[wuzak]

Been reading this forum for few years but this is my first post / question here

Is it legal to use TERS to power a powerfull fan and use it to blow the diffuser ?.

No.

Such devices were banned in the late 1970s.

[riff_raff]

Is it legal to use TERS to power a powerfull fan and use it to blow the diffuser ?.

Using the exhaust flow to improve the performance of the diffuser is just a basic form of TERS, right? The same goes for any performance gain provided by the hot airflow discharged from the radiator and oil cooler ducts. These are just passive methods of recovering thermal energy.

[LoneStarStraits]

In the last days i read many about the new reglement and i realist something i never read somewhere. All energy that can be harvest with the TERS can be driven through the KERS to the rear axle. The only Limit are 120 kw, but it can be used the hole lap. Maybe it's old stuff, but maybe it's interesting for someone.

The regulations do allow for a flow of energy from MGU-H to MGU-k via an MGU Control unit, and this energy flow is unlimited. By my understanding, this means ERS-K power can be used at any time when the power produced in the turbine is greater than that required by the compressor. ERS-K power will be limited only by the 120kW limit. It follows that for on the straights there should be enough power to supply both the MGU-K and the energy store simultaneously.
My question would be what happens if the energy store is nearly full? I have read various opinions as to whether a wastegate will be used - I think there will, at least in case of failure of the TERS system - but will this be used to effectively 'waste' energy that cannot be used for any benefit, or is there some other way to do this?
Also, do we know what sort of power the MGU-H will be able to handle, ie. will it be able to take the full amount of power generated in the turbine (less compressor power) ?

[Tommy Cookers]

the MGU-H unit shown by MM at Monza was described as 90 kW
presumably this allows about 100 kW for much of the 60-70% WOT duty cycle
(handy for me as I had earlier predicted this 100 kW)

turbine power is only developed by gas load on the compressor and electromagnetic (generator) load applied by the MGU-H controller
if the generator develops insufficient load the turbo will overspeed and tend to overboost, but for wastegate action

FWIW today Mamorini or his translator seems to be saying that all the electrical energy will go to storage