2008 Japanese GP

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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shir0
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 13:44
Location: Acton, MA

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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freedom_honda wrote:
myurr wrote:shir0 - no idea, and I didn't even know about the clause that the engine change can't be taken in the last race. So beat me round the head with the clue stick!!

James Allen said that Hamilton could run with two new engines in the last two races during the commentary, but he could be wrong if he also didn't know about the clause that would rule out a swap in Brasil.
Hamilton still got his joker engine.
Yes, LH (and Kubica) still does have the "joker engine rule" to play...no one said he didn't. The thing in question was whether he can have a new engine for each of the remaining two GPs.

If you read my post above, I outlined several scenarios on which both LH and RK can have new engines. It's just that based on the facts (and/or the unknowns), they can only have one new engine remaining to use (either the joker or the allowed new engine after the 2-event-rule). BUT!...they can't use the joker engine in Brazil. It just isn't allowed.
"Fortunately I've got a bag with dry ice in [my suit], which I put next to my balls, so at least they stay nice and cool!"- Sebastian Vettel, 2009 Malaysian GP Friday Practice.

garygph
garygph
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008, 14:25

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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been reading with great interest all the posts and some very interesting opinions. There are two points I would like to express.

One is why so much stress by some people about LH unlapping himself? It is a non issue.. done all the time in racing in all forms and classes etc. There was no near accident etc.

Two. We as fans are frustrate and angry at what appears to be inconsistent penalties and favouritism towards Ferrari ( and I am one of their fans ). There is a huge disparity between the profesionalism of the teams (all of them) and the controlling body, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for the teams with all their hard amazing work to watch results being played with. In my circle of friends there are a few of them that have decided to follow other forms of racing due to this. I really feel for the teams

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freedom_honda
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Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 04:12

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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shir0 wrote:
freedom_honda wrote:
myurr wrote:shir0 - no idea, and I didn't even know about the clause that the engine change can't be taken in the last race. So beat me round the head with the clue stick!!

James Allen said that Hamilton could run with two new engines in the last two races during the commentary, but he could be wrong if he also didn't know about the clause that would rule out a swap in Brasil.
Hamilton still got his joker engine.
BUT!...they can't use the joker engine in Brazil. It just isn't allowed.
really?
im not aware of that.
i thought you can use it anytime any round you want.

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shir0
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008, 13:44
Location: Acton, MA

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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garygph, Welcome to the forum where only "one" rule applies...Bash FIA, Ferrari & Massa; Everyone here is a Formula1 expert; LH is the F1 GOD...trample with him and all hell will be in an uproar; Walk the McLaren way and you're never wrong; Ciro and DaveKillens are always right; Bernie and Max are Klingons.

I know...I'm a kiss-ass...but there you go, I said it for you all. :mrgreen:
"Fortunately I've got a bag with dry ice in [my suit], which I put next to my balls, so at least they stay nice and cool!"- Sebastian Vettel, 2009 Malaysian GP Friday Practice.

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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Ray wrote:Forgive me for beating a dead horse, but why is it okay for Hamilton to fight to unlap himself and put Alonso at risk and yet it's NOT okay for Massa to expect Sutil to give way to the leader in pit lane? I was always brought up in every type of racing to ALWAYS give the leader the right of way in any situation. The leader is the leader and you must yield to him at all times.
Utterly different situations. As others have pointed out, Hamilton did nothing to endanger Alonso, with the latter even appearing to slow to let him through.

You've in fact answered your own question in a way - they key phrase is "in the pit lane". Sutil was like any other back marker and technically has three corners in which to let Massa through. To operate in any other manner, for example having to suddenly brake (possibly even holding up other cars that are lapping him) in the middle of the pit lane just to let a lapping car through is disingenuous and dangerous.
Ray wrote: I think Massa was completely at fault for turning Lewis around and he deserved the penalty. I don't however think that Massa deserves a penalty for his pass on Webber. Yeah it was tight, but they were nowhere close to colliding and no one was coming out of the pits. No harm, no foul. Lots of drivers got away with going over the pit entry line without a penalty, that is probably why he wasn't penalized.
Massa drove completely off the circuit to pull off that overtaking move - ie. in breach of the rule that Hamilton was given a drive through penalty for in Spa. He also drove through the red and white hatched area that cars are NEVER supposed to go through. Very dangerous precedent to set that an overtaking car may go off circuit and through forbidden zones just so they get past.

Regardless of whether or not he should have been penalised in this instance, at the very least the FIA should be issuing a public clarification stating that such a move is dangerous and will be punished in the future.

vs331
vs331
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 05:33

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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Here is a pretty good analysis of the first lap events.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... m-fel.html

Onboard Massa that provides good evidence of turn 1 events
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4p-FcrBLc

LH ended up behind Massa, coz he went wide at turn 3 and lost 3 places. Finally the mystery is solved for me.

vs331
vs331
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 05:33

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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From Ed Gorman's blog that I posted above...
"they are increasingly taking the view that Lewis went into Turn 10 and 11 on lap two with, at the very least, a "devil may care" thought in his mind. He knew he had to pit almost immediately because his front tyres were worn to the canvas where he had flat-spotted them at Turn 1, so he might have been thinking 'what the hell, let's take Felipe on. My race is almost run, maybe he'll do something stupid, especially if I play hard.' Felipe says Lewis pushed him into the gravel; Lewis says Felipe hit him on purpose. Felipe gets a penalty. I don't know. If Lewis was thinking the way the hacks suggest, then his strategy was at least partially successful."
Hmmm....

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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vs331 wrote:Onboard Massa that provides good evidence of turn 1 events
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4p-FcrBLc
Great vid! Some questions answered. Still, the main question to me is why did Heikki missed turn 1? He braked right and had every possibility to take the lead, yet he followed Hamilton to the run-off... Why? Conspiracy theory anyone, heh?
Maybe the track was wet on the inside...
And Hamilton missed turn 3 in style))))

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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vs331 wrote:From Ed Gorman's blog that I posted above...
"they are increasingly taking the view that Lewis went into Turn 10 and 11 on lap two with, at the very least, a "devil may care" thought in his mind. He knew he had to pit almost immediately because his front tyres were worn to the canvas where he had flat-spotted them at Turn 1, so he might have been thinking 'what the hell, let's take Felipe on. My race is almost run, maybe he'll do something stupid, especially if I play hard.' Felipe says Lewis pushed him into the gravel; Lewis says Felipe hit him on purpose. Felipe gets a penalty. I don't know. If Lewis was thinking the way the hacks suggest, then his strategy was at least partially successful."
Hmmm....
Complete and utter bull crap, watch the pit stop LH made right after MAssa clobbered him and you will see at clear pit lane speed that none of LH's tires were showing canvas. How would he complete a full lap and be able to catch MAssa with tires flatspotted to the canvas. MAssa deliberatly took out Hamilton, clear as day. HE probly went wide because the Toyota ahead of him braked way early and took his line away, but his move to take out Hamilton was deliberate, and he later lied about LH putting him into the gravel to cover it up. We can all clearly see that LH did no such thing to Massa.

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Shaddock
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 14:39
Location: UK

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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It also shows that Kimi although pushed wide would have made turned turn 1 but has to straighten up to avoid Heikki.

Great Vid

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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Shaddock wrote:It also shows that Kimi although pushed wide would have made turned turn 1 but has to straighten up to avoid Heikki.

Great Vid
Japan: LH "pushes" KIMI wide with no contact, LH given a drive thru

Spa: KIMI "pushes" LH wide with contact, LH given a drive thru(25 sec)

Is it fair? Is it equal? Is it Just? Is it right?- Mos Def

woohoo
woohoo
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Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:12

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
Shaddock wrote:It also shows that Kimi although pushed wide would have made turned turn 1 but has to straighten up to avoid Heikki.

Great Vid
Japan: LH "pushes" KIMI wide with no contact, LH given a drive thru

Spa: KIMI "pushes" LH wide with contact, LH given a drive thru(25 sec)

Is it fair? Is it equal? Is it Just? Is it right?- Mos Def
Lewis Hamilton got a penalty at Spa for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage.
The only way to close a stupid question is to give a smart answer

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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woohoo wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:
Shaddock wrote:It also shows that Kimi although pushed wide would have made turned turn 1 but has to straighten up to avoid Heikki.

Great Vid
Japan: LH "pushes" KIMI wide with no contact, LH given a drive thru

Spa: KIMI "pushes" LH wide with contact, LH given a drive thru(25 sec)

Is it fair? Is it equal? Is it Just? Is it right?- Mos Def
Lewis Hamilton got a penalty at Spa for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage.
He cut the chicane after being hit by KIMI and to avoid more contact, furthermore he gave back any advantage he may have gained, he didnt even draft KIMI down the straight. But I'm sure you think different.

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shotzski
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Joined: 03 Jun 2008, 07:10
Location: Manila, Philippines

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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Felipe on the other hand, should have had 2 drive throughs instead of one. One for hitting, and another one for overtaking off the track. Just not sure if his moves on Webber and Bourdais was legal.

chasefreak
chasefreak
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Joined: 28 Feb 2007, 06:03
Location: India

Re: 2008 Japanese GP

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has anyone seen the footage on formula1.com
they have released all 3 footages of the penalties given to lewis massa and SB
i feel that lewis did not deserve any penalty but massa deserved 2
but he gets one and gets the benefit of another by giving him an extra point
#massa should never have even got a single point
this season is rigged like last year

the FIA have a weapon....
give a driver a drive through penalty ... so that they cannot fight back that ... wow the game is more lovely now