Why open-wheel racing?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

As i can recall, in the mid-late 70s, the once glorious CanAm series was run with Lola T330 Formula 5000 cars, with sportscar body-conversions. I wonder how the lap-times compared?
http://www.oldracingcars.com/canam/
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

The more consider it, that Lola above would look damn good as a Formula 1 car, clean and purposeful I think.
Did I manage to piss off any monoposto-purists by that?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
jon-mullen
1
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 02:56
Location: Big Blue Nation

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

jamsbong wrote:I just remembered. I'm sure you all watch Top Gear, so you'll know that the Veyron is Slower than the tiny Caterham which happens to be open-wheeled.

a tiny 4cyl car faster than a 16cyl 4 turbo $1million car? That to me is the ultimate argument for open wheel.
In the hands of The Stig, former F1 driver.
Loud idiot in red since 2010
United States Grand Prix Club, because there's more to racing than NASCAR

jamsbong
jamsbong
0
Joined: 13 May 2007, 05:00

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

I think the Caterham vs Veyron is a clear proof that open wheel cars are faster and so much more fun. If the Caterham is a close body race car, then it will end up like a Lotus Elise, which is heavier and not as fast.

I mean you can't really expect having a shell that makes the body which weighs lighter than air, so Close body cars will always be heavier. The aero advantage only comes into play at very high speeds. All round performance, ie. in-tight corners, accelerations, cornering Gs and braking, I still think Open wheel wins overall.

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

I think jamsbong´s got a point regarding advantages at high speed.

The comparisons like the Catheram-Veyron one are irrelevant. One is heavy and powerful and the other is light. You can´t compare them arround a track the same way you can´t compare them in a top speed challenge.

A good comparison would be like the one xpensive proposed: the same car with and without the body.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

The advantages of a "full-bodied F1 car" should be significantly less drag, resulting in a much higher straight-line speed, as well as increased downforce due to the larger underbody area. As for the weight penalty of the additional composite body-work, I am not so sure.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

Oh, c'mon. I leave you for I don't know, like three months and some of you are still discussing why on earth there is open wheel racing?

Wake up, people, this is a Formula One Forum! I confess these days it's becoming harder and harder to distinguish real people from robots...

If I haven't told you so already, I say it now:

We have open wheel racing...

Because you can feel the wind on your face (and you can swallow one or two bugs per mile).

Because chicks will actually watch your face while you pass by (unless you're one of those morons that ride an open wheel car professionally and you have to use a helmet with a undescriptible thingie on top of your shoulders that makes you seem like Hansel of Hansel and Gretel, with tirolese pants: that's why it's called a Hans device).

Because you can actually watch the wheels go up and down with every bump and you can watch how you are tearing them down to pieces.

Because you feel manly and proud of your car.

Because wimps don't have open wheel cars.

Because open wheel cars actually have an engine under the hood, unlike modern cars.

Because nobody will confuse your car with a giant tennis shoe model.

You know, when I was young, cars were always breaking down. Probably this happened because cars, back then, actually used internal combustion engines, which means they really used gasoline exploding inside the engine. I used to have an old Dodge Dart, 1971 vintage, with a loud six in line engine: you knew it had one because you never knew if it were going to start on any given day. I swear I spent more time bent under the hood, trying to fix something, than the time I spent driving that thing.

The car I have today probably has an engine, but I'm not sure. It doesn't produce any noticeable sound and I don't remember to have ever watched under the hood. AFAIK, it could be propelled by an alien spacecraft engine, I wouldn't know about it.

I remember vaguely actually watching a mass of sensors and injectors and wires and tubes back when I bought it, but only because the car seller showed to me what I assume it was the car's engine.

Back when buying this car, at the dealer, I almost fainted thinking about the possibility of the car ever breaking down: I wouldn't be able to distinguish the carburetor from the oil pump (I think it doesn't have a carburetor, nor a distributor, nor a mechanic gas pump, so this makes really hard to locate them).

To my good fortune, this engine has gone without a hitch for 100,000 miles. Do you want it to start? Simply turn the key. I don't know if the car uses oil or even gasoline, it seems to work by magic, unlike the old Dart, which only worked on alternate days, as long as you graduated the distributor every half hour.

And yet I vividly remember that old Dart, unlike the cars I've had in recent decades, all of which have the personality of a pension actuary. In the words of Dave Barry, "in fact, that might be the formal name of my current car: The Actuary."

Some of you know I'm the proud owner of a GTO. That's what Mr. Barry has to say about it when he found one and say "Nice Goat" to the owner:
''Thanks,'' said the GTO driver, and the light turned green, and he rumbled off, gasoline exploding audibly in his large internal-combustion engine, while I glided forward in my eerily silent Actuary, which I think runs on a computer hard drive powered by nuclear fusion. I knew the GTO guy would probably have to pull over within the next 150 yards for gas, oil, new pinions, etc., but I was jealous of him. I found myself humming ''Little GTO,'' the 1964 hit by Ronny and the Daytonas, in which Ronny describes the GTO in loving technical detail (''Three deuces and a four speed and a 389'') and the Daytonas, not quite in tune, sing: 'Turnin' it on! Blowin' it out! Turnin' it on! Blowin' it out!''

That was from the Golden Age of Car Songs, songs like the Beach Boys' ''409'' (''My four-speed, dual-quad, positraction 409!'') and of course Chuck Berry's ''Maybelline,'' in which Chuck's V-8 Ford (pronounced ''Foad'') chases down a Cadillac, and Chuck displays his grasp of automotive thermodynamics (''Rainwater blowin' all under my hood; I knew that was doin' my motor good'').

Nobody will ever write a song like that about my Actuary, or any other modern car. Modern cars are just not songworthy.

The other guys are all jealous of me
When I cruise in my Hyundai Elantra GT
And the girls always feel a romantic explosion
When they learn that my warranty covers corrosion

No, today's cars are just not exciting.
And that's why we have open wheel cars. Any other arguments are as useless as modern, closed wheeled "race" cars, designed by computer, cars that you could use along a pair of Prada shoes: they have no soul.

The only way you could have a closed wheel race car is if you drive a Le Mans or ALMS prototype, and, let's face it, only because their design hasn't changed noticeably in 50 years or so (and, to be frank, even them, protos, are weirdo's cars in some sense). Any other thing is not a race car.
Ciro

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

What I think Ciro is trying to say, is that there are simply no TECHNICAL arguments for open-wheel racing whatsoever, a covered Force India would surely run away with the championship. But many emotional and nostalgic arguments, yes?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

Hi, xpensive, happy new year. I'm not trying to say anything, I'm saying it for your entertainement. :)

Of course, you can put a straight face and allege that open wheel is XXX or closed bodies are YYY, but in for the love of Pete, donoughts are round and with a hole in the middle.

I wonder if you could argue about square donoughts (they would be more efficient for packaging) or donoughts without coatings and fillers (would they be healthier?). My answer: yes, we could argue about that. Does it serve any purpose? Yes, we can laugh about it, at least I can, because they wouldn't be donoughts.

Same goes for open wheel racing: you can change a little the body, I agree, but if you're going to make a racecar, please, please, would-be-designers that read this, try to make it look like one. Choose: is that or I will be haunting you when I'm dead... :)

I guess that cannot be taught, shown or written (it can be sung, or put into poetry, btw), but the exhilaration some people feel when they drive an open-wheeler exists. You cannot argue about that: either you get it or you don't. My condolences to those that don't get it: they probably think that motorbikes are unsafe.
Ciro

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

Yo Ciro,
And a Happy New Year to yourself! As an engineer I never allege anything, certainly not with a straight face anyway(!), I am only interested in technical facts.

That is why I would love to see Michael Schumacher, sporting an open helmet and long red scarf to go with it, trying to follow a full-bodied Force India around Monza in a conventional Ferrari.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

Only in technical facts? Well, I thought that techniques were means to reach and end, but I might be wrong: they have become and end in themselves. Sigh.

Then you must be interested in the cock-o-meter, proposed by Mr. Clarkson, here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/drivin ... 004580.ece

I quote:

"... what I want from a Ferrari is not science and maths. I want heart and soul. I want love and affection. I want them to be less like a laptop and more like a book or a painting. Perhaps this has something to do with the company’s current, and misguided, obsession with putting as much Formula One trinketry into the road cars as is humanly possible. Square steering wheels with gearchange advisory lights. Flappy paddle gearboxes. Five-way traction control. Look under the bonnet of a 599 and you’ll find the plastic sheet fitted to shroud the radiators has been sculptured to resemble the nose of an F1 car. That’s not clever. It’s naff. Drive past a cock-o-meter in a car like this and it will explode."

And, my friends, that kind of "technical thinking" is what has brought to us this new "breed" of cars, cars that try to seem open wheelers but without open wheels, open cockpits but with closed cockpits. They blow my cock-o-meter.

It's the same problem that has the question that originates this thread: it blows my cock-o-meter. Are you seriously asking for a lot of technical reasons about why Formula One cars have open wheels in a Formula One forum? They are not technical reasons: aerodynamics are horrible, safety is a huge concern when the tyres touch, the damn wheels can end easily on top of your helmet if they crash with anything.

Have you ever looked at the car library in this site? Duh.

The kind of cars we've seen that appear to be race cars and "rational, technically enhanced race cars", have the same amount of brains behind their design as the "crossovers" that the "incredibly shrinking 3 large american companies" put in our highways. I think these closed wheelers that try to ressemble open wheelers will find the same fate of crossovers, that is, the fate of the people obsessed with image instead of substance. And if that's not clear and you insist that I'm trying to say something, well, please, kill me. ;)
Ciro

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Why open-wheel racing?

Post

Hey Ciro, you be nice, or I might just send an anonymous tip to Max and Mr E that a vast majority of F1 Technical pundits has agreed that full-bodied F1-cars would not only accept far more sponsorship area, but should also be virtually children-safe, environmental-friendly, equal-opportunistic and far less expensive to build and develop than the technical anachronisms roaming the circuits today.

And that's not a threat, mind you.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"