- Login or Register
No account yet? Sign up
At an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council held in Paris on 29 April 2009, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes admitted five charges of breaching article 151c of the International Sporting Code relating to events at the Australian and Malaysian Grands Prix.
A pentalty has been dealt, they have been disqualified already. Do you suggest now they need to pay a fine of outrageous proportions?Ciro Pabón wrote:McLaren hasn't paid for its "mistakes". When you lie, steal, cheat you're not making "mistakes" but you're behaving like a criminal.
No you can not assume they were paying anyone to steal information, that has not been proved.Ciro Pabón wrote:McLaren was fortunate enough for not being expelled from the championship after stealing plans and specifications and paying (you have to assume some interest had the parties involved) for a spy acting inside a competitor.
No different to what I wrote above, he already has been punished. Try 5 WDC points considering the last two drivers' championships have been decided by 1 point. What is your suggestion? Take half his salary for the year? Take all his salary for the next 10 years? Get off the grass guys...Ciro Pabón wrote:Now I think FIA should punish Hamilton for "allowing himself" to be a "team player", that is, for knowingly lying to a refereee and colluding with other people to get an unfair penalty for Toyota. Where I live that's not called "team playing", that's called "lack of character".
Yet another assumtion with no true grounds of evidence...Ciro Pabón wrote:Who was the only one at McLaren (beside Ron Dennis... a thing that defies belief) who did not know they were using information from Ferrari? Yep. Lewis Hamilton.
Interesting that you'd write that since the birthplace of the Mafia is indeed the home to Ferrari. Since you like making so many assumptions, I'm going to throw one of my own assumptions at you... Why was it that the Carabinieri stormed the McLaren garage at the Italian GP in 2007? Why did that only happen in Italy and nowhere else? If you are to assume some one at McLaren was lining Stepney's pocket, well then as far as I'm concerned, it is as valid to assume Ferrari were lining the pockets of the local Crabinieri. Don't get on your high horse about honour and corruption when your talking about Ferrari mate, there is simply no room for it.Ciro Pabón wrote:I'm really tired of a team cheating its way and being caught several times while many people still chant the "Ferrari is to blame" song. Oh, c'mon. Did Ferrari planted everything? Did they force McLaren to behave, for the last two years, like a house ran by the Mafia?
So if the FIA leaves no room for guesses, why do you continiue to make your own aussumptions which are as good as guesses??Ciro Pabón wrote:It's McLaren the ugly team nowadays and you all know it. FIA letter doesn't leave room for guesses: they continued to lie even when confronted with their own recordings
I truly wish that I could be honurable and righteous like yourself, pun intended. Or maybe I should be wishing that McLaren could be instead? I don't know, you tell me, scince you guys know so much more than everyone else on this forum. People like you, who constantly insist on partially justified McLaren assrape, are the reason that McLaren fans would see this as another witch-hunt. Pentalies have already been dealt. The matter shouldn't need to go any further, dare I make any more assumpions like Ciro here, that would only be the case if the FIA and every other team wasnt piled against McLaren.donskar wrote:+1. Superb post.
Hamilton is WDC, rich, his future secure. Surely he can afford to tell the truth, regardless of what his team tells him? And before you ask, YES I have told the truth, knowing it would cost me my job -- twice. It's not really so hard. And I am many galaxies away from being champion of anything.
The pentalies have already been dealt with for that particular race. Now FIA want to see how much the team as a whole was involved because there are indications (e.g. MW insisting they did not lie!) that they were. And also way they got stuck to their story at the second hearinglkocev wrote: People like you, who constantly insist on partially justified McLaren assrape, are the reason that McLaren fans would see this as another witch-hunt. Pentalies have already been dealt. The matter shouldn't need to go any further, dare I make any more assumpions like Ciro here, that would only be the case if the FIA and every other team wasnt piled against McLaren.
Because legally they can only operate in Italy. Since Ferrari is an Italian team, it is reasonable for them to sue somebody in an Italian court first and foremost where the Police and the Carabinieri are the executive branches at the local level. If the Italian police or Carabinieri need to search somebody's property outside of Italy, they have to get Interpol involved.lkocev wrote:Why was it that the Carabinieri stormed the McLaren garage at the Italian GP in 2007? Why did that only happen in Italy and nowhere else?
lkocev wrote:If you are to assume some one at McLaren was lining Stepney's pocket, well then as far as I'm concerned, it is as valid to assume Ferrari were lining the pockets of the local Crabinieri.
I'm curious to know how you know there's no room for IT? Ferrari did not steal industrial documents. Ferrari did not tell its drivers to lie to stewards.lkocev wrote:Don't get on your high horse about honour and corruption when your talking about Ferrari mate, there is simply no room for it.
) are the charade goes on while greed, incompetence and corruption prevail. The real culprit? The foolish masses who fall for such things. Max and Bernie are geniuses. Evil geniuses but geniuses nonetheless. They are playing people like fools and laughing all the way to the bank, or S&M dungeon as the case might be. Fools, fools, fools.FIA race director Charlie Whiting has also revealed that Hamilton denied more than once in the original hearing in Australia that he had let Trulli pass him.
Whiting said: "When asked very clearly, 'Did you consciously let him past, did you pull over to let him past', he [Hamilton] said, 'No'. The question was asked more than once. He was adamant that he hadn't slowed down and hadn't let Trulli past."
Wow dude. I hope you read the article on Autosport.gcdugas wrote:If you ever need a lesson on how evil prevails, this is it.
Did the FIA stewards rule without considering all the evidence? Are they a bunch of incompetent boobs? Did they believe that JT must have lied to them when he said LH let him by? Did they make a stink when JT told them something they, by their ruling, held to be untrue? The FIA are employing the oldest trick in the book.... divide and conquer. All they have to do is provoke the polarized and highly partisan masses into a squabble and their incompetence and evil deeds get a free pass as the masses blindly and stupidly go after each other in blind rage and bogus indignation.
Puhleeze! Twice now I have asked the "crucify LH and Mac crowd" what they would see as a fair punishment and twice they failed to put forth an answer. Why? Because the only thing that will satisfy their blood lust is something that they can't articulate lest their bias and inequity be exposed.
Do you want to know why F1 is run by evil tyrants, do you want to know why we get people like Clinton, Bush, Blair, etc. running things? It is easy. All the ruling elites have to do is provoke the masses into fruitless squabbles with their false "two party system" and they are blinded to the real facts that both parties are the same. Obama has upheld Bush's wars, he wants more troops for Afghanistan, he is ramping up "Patriot Act" domestic spying, he is continuing the bailouts started under Bush, he is spending us into greater deficits like Bush etc..... and that is "change we can believe in".
Max does the same thing and the masses get fooled again. Wake up! The FIA do as they wish without regard to Concorde, their own rules (changing to a "wins system" before they were exposed. And then the FIA said that the "commercial rights holder" said to do it and.... that "the teams wanted it". Well we all know that was a lie. The teams put forth their solution, had it ignored, resisted the madness of the FIA and finally found some little statute that says the rule can't be changed within a certain period. The teams still don't want it but the FIA has said it will happen regardless in 2010.
The FIA clearly lied when they said "the teams wanted a wins structure for the WDC" as an excuse to cover up their own failings.
The FIA clearly lied about their own stewards statement last year.
"Movable aero devices" was another blatant lie by the FIA.
Tire ovens were "blankets" is another FIA lie.
Where was all this self righteous indignation then fellas? It makes me sick. You are blinded suckers and all contribute to the demise of F1 by focusing your ire on the wrong parties. If all the ire that is directed at Mac by Ferrari fans, If all the ire that is directed at Ferrari by Mac fans, etc. was instead focused at the true guilty party, the FIA, then Max would have been run out of town, or the GPMA would have succeeded or whatever.
And lets not leave Bernie out of this either. He knows that the solidarity of the FOTA means less money for his greedy hands. If he can destabilize them by things like this and the diffuser row, then he will prevail at the bargaining table. And with mad Max's crazy $30M budget madness, Bernie can get away with offering the teams much less winnings.
And the loser in all this is..... F1 itself. To the world it looks like a bunch of Euro trash barristers arguing like school yard children. What other sport can't even decide its own rules before the races on things like diffusers? Can't you see that they purposefully don't want to get it straight beforehand? Can't you see how this is all manufactured to further empower them? Can't you see how this is all designed to destabilize the FOTA?
Real relevant technology is going to LMP and other series. We see Michelin getting railroaded out of the sport, std. ECUs, and nearly spec engines. The promoters are going broke. Venues are stopping races. No USA, no Canada, no France, no Imola, no Nurburgring and instead we get the ugly Valencia docks being fenced in with less overtaking than Monaco. Great deal Bernie!
But hey, everything is OK... Lewis is a liar, Mac are cheats (no other team has ever done anything like this before
More at 11:00. Now back to our regularly scheduled squabbles...
jddh1 wrote: Wow dude. I hope you read the article on Autosport.
Anyway, back to our "irregular" scheduled programming.
If you read MY posts, in particular, I've said for ages that the FIA are more to blame for this whole mess than Macca and LH are. For AGES, son! And I've also said for AGES that the teams need to get create their own series, taking in more of the profits so they can run F1 like it's supposed to be run, and still to demand less money from organizers. Again, I've said that for AGES, son! So don't go on bashing people wish senseless accusations.
Now, back to our "regular" scheduled programming.
Since this thread is not about the FIA screwing up, or about the Macca vs Ferrari and all that crap you're talking, but it's about MCLAREN AND LEWIS HAMILTON screwing up, then you must admit, that as far as they are concerned, they made a mistake.
Personally, I think they do not deserve more than the penalty given. But again, I don't know all the rules.
I do not give LH/Mac a free pass. Punish them as you would have punished Trulli/Toyota is what I have said. They must have thought JT was lying when they ruled that he passed LH under the safety car despite his assertions that LH let him by. I have said that many times. Punish LH as they have punished Senna, Schumi, etc. for their past fibs. They stripped JT of his podium when they disbelieved his version. Now that they don't believe LH's version, mete out the same punishment and be done with it. Period, end of story. No WMSC trial, no big stink, no cheap political points and public lynching by press releases etc. And certainly no personal vendettas.mikhak wrote:@gcdugas Yeah this thread is about trulli, hamilton, mclaren and the FIA but you seem intent on making it purely about the FIA and max mosley. we're all agreed FIA, hamilton and mclaren lied, so why is your idignation so centred on the FIA, why dont you treat all the lying parties equally. you claim the FIA is getting a free pass but you're giving hamilton and mclaren a free pass by so completely and utterly focusing on the FIA and max mosley.
this thread should be about trulli, hamilton, mclaren and the FIA and the incident in the australian gp rather than what happened in belgium last year or jerez over 10yrs ago. what i sincerely hope to come out of this extraordinary meeting is for all the information to come out about what exactly happened at the first meeting just after the race and subsequently.
They ruled without looking at the available evidence. They ruled that JT didn't tell them the truth when he said that LH let him by. They have not been honest in saying the whole matter was their fault because of the incomplete investigation of the stewards. They shifted the blame from their incompetence to LH's misrepresentation/lie as a lightning rod distraction. etc. It has been all said before. They simply cannot conduct things equitably (LH gets a penalty for lying but when they necessarily believes JT was lying... a smaller and quieter penalty). The FIA has been less than forthcoming and will not admit that their stewards mismanaged the whole matter of their duties. Jackie Stewart and many commentators have said as much. And many others think it but are afraid to voice it for fear of retribution against their team, or the loss of their press privileges etc.mikhak wrote:How did the FIA lie in Australia?
The charges were brought against McLaren long before the Italian GP, and the charges were not brought against them by the Carabinieri, or whatever other local authority. They could have just as easily had the local authorities do that in Barcelona well before the Italian GP if it was a simple matter of brigning charges against them.jddh1 wrote:Because legally they can only operate in Italy. Since Ferrari is an Italian team, it is reasonable for them to sue somebody in an Italian court first and foremost where the Police and the Carabinieri are the executive branches at the local level. If the Italian police or Carabinieri need to search somebody's property outside of Italy, they have to get Interpol involved.lkocev wrote:Why was it that the Carabinieri stormed the McLaren garage at the Italian GP in 2007? Why did that only happen in Italy and nowhere else?
Its only far fetched because there is no formal evidence. Similar to suggesting that McLaren was paying Stepney. That simply has not been proven.jddh1 wrote:lkocev wrote:If you are to assume some one at McLaren was lining Stepney's pocket, well then as far as I'm concerned, it is as valid to assume Ferrari were lining the pockets of the local Crabinieri.
And why would Ferrari line up the local Carabinieri (not CRABinieri) pockets? What do they have to hide? Your assumptions are more far fetched that life on the Sun's surface.
McLaren didn't steal industrial documents either, a McLaren empolyee was found with them in his possesion. They were passed onto him by a Ferrari employee, who hasn't been proved to be paid by McLaren.jddh1 wrote:I'm curious to know how you know there's no room for IT? Ferrari did not steal industrial documents. Ferrari did not tell its drivers to lie to stewards.lkocev wrote:Don't get on your high horse about honour and corruption when your talking about Ferrari mate, there is simply no room for it.
I have a clear head mate. Unlike many people I don't have "hate McLaren" blinders on my face. I try to look at things with an objective attitude. Should McLaren have been penalised for giving misleading information? Yes. Have McLaren been penalised? Yes. Were McLaren penalised as a team? Yes. It wasn't just Lewis that was disqualified, the team was disqualified too. The matter shouldn't need to go any further. If Martin Whitmarsh lied to them in a second hearing, and the Stewards knew he was, then they shouldn't need to wait until a later date to deal a penalty. They knew that before they dealt the initial penalty of disqualification.jddh1 wrote:lkocev, give me a break. When you start thinking with your head on your shoulders then resume posting here. Till then, do us a favor and refrain from thinking altogether. Clear your head first.