Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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chrys
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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The FIA claims that McLaren may have broken the regulations on five counts, that:

* on 29 March, 2009, told the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix that no instructions were given to Hamilton in Car No. 1 to allow Trulli in Car no. 9 to pass when both cars were behind the safety car, knowing this statement to be untrue;

* procured its driver Hamilton the current World Champion, to support and confirm this untrue statement to the stewards;

* although knowing that as a direct result of its untrue statement to the stewards, another driver and a rival team had been unfairly penalised, made no attempt to rectify the situation either by contacting the FIA or otherwise;

* on 2 April, 2009, at a second hearing before the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix, (meeting in Malaysia) made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29 March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli past and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement;
This question is put correctly?
Whiting said: "When asked very clearly, 'Did you consciously let him past, did you pull over to let him past',
[-X

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shir0
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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gcdugas wrote:...the FIA are not off-topic.

...the guilt of the FIA.

...indignation at the FIA.

It isn't as if they have never lied. Why the silence? Why are the majority of the participants on this thread ignoring this?

...where are you when the FIA incontrovertibly lies?
Wow. Your posts really are full of this stuff aren't 'em? Why don't YOU, gcdugas, take it to court then?

I've discussed (or damned well tried to...) some of this with you back in Sep '08.

I've asked you then...

Why not have the teams be more pro-active WITH THE FIA in the creation of technical and sporting rules. Why not have the teams re-negotiate the concorde agreement and incorporate some binding articles WITH THE FIA that should the FIA break some of those agreement, THE FIA will be held accountable in a public civil court?

Instead of discussing the suggestion, you then threw around further accusations and ...what was it?... oh yeah... TRIPE! to try and get around discussing the issue in a positive direction. You're so full of the FIA, that I would not be shocked to know that one day would you have gunned down someone with slightest bit of association with the FIA. (oooo... careful there Ciro. Wear a kevlar vest. :mrgreen: )

I've also floated a rather radical question...

Why don't the teams consider creating their own series? Formula 0? Grand Prix World Championship?

Now you're proclaiming you're ready to discuss things? What's hilarious is that, guess what the topic is...

F I A

Your "God of Racing" lied. Your favorite team lied. And they lied for a measely 1 point advantage to gain, which they know, they would be hard pressed to get in every race this year. Deal with it because that is what is being discussed on this thread. You want a trolling thread on the FIA? Then go ahead and start one.
"Fortunately I've got a bag with dry ice in [my suit], which I put next to my balls, so at least they stay nice and cool!"- Sebastian Vettel, 2009 Malaysian GP Friday Practice.

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gcdugas
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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In accord with the mindset of many on this forum, the FIA stewards announce a new method of scrutineering the cars for the grid.

It consists only of asking the teams if their cars conform to the rules. No more templates, no more flex tests, no more weighing, no more measuring. No, they will simply ask the teams and that will be considered due diligence and the faithful exercise of their duties. If a team says its cars meet the requirements, then the FIA will believe them without verification. It doesn't matter if a car sprouts all kinds of new wings and aero bits. No, the stewards will ignore available visual evidence in accord with the precedent set by the Aussie 2009 stewards. Think of all the expense saved. Think of the stewards being able to get back to their important parties and social functions.

In an interview Max Mosley was unusually candid saying: "Verification, we don't need no steenkin' verification. If there is any trouble, we can fix it later and blame others. We can even rule retroactively like we did with the Michelin tires in 2003. In addition to saving money and bother, this new system has been tested and works remarkably well."
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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mikhak
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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* on 2 April, 2009, at a second hearing before the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix, (meeting in Malaysia) made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29 March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli past and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement;
Sounds pretty stupid of mclaren to continue to lie. but then we could assume that if the stewards had all the radio recordings at the first meeting as they had now on 2 April, mclaren still would have lied about it. Mclaren were determined to lie at the expense of trulli.
They could be in serious trouble with the loss of their sporting director, possibly martin whitmarsh stepping down and possibly no points this year. These F1 teams are businesses and not many could suffer the dent in confidence this scandal has brought and put this together with a shitty car and all the rumours circulating about hamilton leaving. I think there could be a few sponsors lookin at this bare looking Brawn GP, thinkin that they too could be part of the "fairytale" as many are calling it and rid themselves of the horror story that is mclaren's controversies.

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gcdugas
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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shir0 wrote:
gcdugas wrote:...the FIA are not off-topic.

...the guilt of the FIA.

...indignation at the FIA.

It isn't as if they have never lied. Why the silence? Why are the majority of the participants on this thread ignoring this?

...where are you when the FIA incontrovertibly lies?
Wow. You really are full of this stuff aren't 'ya? Why don't YOU, gcdugas, take it to court then?

I've discussed (or damned well tried to...) some of this with you back in Sep '08
Take the FIA to court? If you seriously are attempting to pass off such warped logic as valid, then address this issue of the FIA's bias, lies, bogus ruling, sham stewards, and kangaroo courts. They are indefensible.
shir0 wrote:
I've asked you then...

Why not have the teams be more pro-active WITH THE FIA in the creation of technical and sporting rules. Why not have the teams re-negotiate the concorde agreement and incorporate some binding articles WITH THE FIA that should the FIA break some of those agreement, THE FIA will be held accountable in a public civil court?

Instead of discussing the suggestion, you then threw around further accusations and ...what was it?... oh yeah... TRIPE! to try and get around discussing the issue in a positive direction. You're so full of the FIA, that I would not be shocked to know that one day would you have gunned down someone with slightest bit of association with the FIA. (oooo... careful there Ciro. Wear a kevlar vest. :mrgreen: )
Every time the teams try to be proactive they get summarily dismissed and ignored. Their points system idea... ignored, dismissed and overruled. Their resistance to V-8s... ignored, dismissed and overruled. Their resistance to the engine "freeze"... ignored, dismissed and overruled. The teams never wanted narrow tract and grooved tires, no matter, the FIA just jammed it down their throats. And how about all the quali changes? In 2003 the FIA unilatterally changed it before the teams could say anything or design bigger tanks for fuel. The teams didn't want the front wing raised in 2005 and 2006 either. Many many things the teams didn't want and many many things that were the proper domain of the TWG, the FIA simply usurped. The teams have tried. It was only their misguided quest for peace with a tyrant that prevented the GPMA schism. They looked at the US split in open wheel racing and flinched. They failed to consider that the US split resulted in two series but if the GPMA happened there would be only one series, the GPMA and... nothing, maybe some Ferrari spec series but certainly nothing like the US split. That is what I hold against the teams. And now that the FOTA is holding firm, Bernie and Max are trying to divide and conquer them with liegate and diffusergate. What other racing series can't settle a technical ruling that arises eight weeks before the first race of a new season? This is inexcusable for the FIA. Either way they rule on the 14th, someone will feel cheated. This is by design to break up the solidarity of the FOTA. Power and money.
shir0 wrote:I've also floated a rather radical question...

Why don't the teams consider creating their own series? Formula 0? Grand Prix World Championship?

You never bit. Now you're proclaiming you're ready to discuss things? What's hilarious is that, guess what the topic is...

F I A
I mourn the stillbirth of the GPMA. And I still excoriate injustice, corruption, the manipulation of Championships, greed and power-mongering. Evidently you are very comfortable with these things.
shir0 wrote:Your "God of Racing" lied. Your favorite team lied. And they lied for a measely 1 point advantage to gain, which they know, they would be hard pressed to get in every race this year. Deal with it because that is what is being discussed on this thread. You want a thread on the FIA? Then go ahead and start one.
This just goes to show how much your preconceived notions rule you. BEFORE "liegate", immediately after the Aussie GP, on this forum, I said Trulli was robbed and I predicted they would prevail in an appeal (which Toyota didn't pursue). And LH is pretty far down the list of my fav drivers... in 11th place. Try listening sometime.

For the record I complained mightily against the FIA in 2003 and 2006 so I am not aboard the rabidly pro-Mac bandwagon.

Drivers in order,

1.) NH (quiet, non-complainer, never causes a crash, finishes races, underrated, could win in a better car like Button has proved, mediocre qualifier, needs to quit the heavy fuel one-stopper mess)

2.) FA (hated his black mail effort, but he prevailed against MS and the FIA in 2006, definitely is the fastest driver out there, and can rally a team and engineers to improve the car, has grown through the hardship of a slow car)

3.) FM (except for the Spa travesty last year which he benefited from, FM has fully arrived and drives like a champion and is a humble team player)

4.) JT (the best qualifier for several seasons, now his race-craft is also top notch, underrated, humble, can develop the car almost as good as FA, honest, a team player, hasn't slacked off after a long term contract as predicted, the best talent who's contract is up should have many offers)

5.) JB (only needed a good car, 2004 was the last year he had a good car except for the latter races in 2006 when he outscored both MS and FA)

6.) TG (did very well once he got settled in, fast, not a crasher, quiet, team-player, honest)

7.) SBo (a tad slow, needs to take more chances and ramp up the aggression but still has excellent rece-craft, humble, a non-crasher)

8.) SV (fast and young, too early to tell that much, honest, not a moaner, only behind FA in terms of speed)

9.) NR (fast, technically adept, team player, never had a fast car yet until MAYBE now, better than his WDC dad)

10.) RB (a nice guy, past his prime but still fast enough to keep JB honest)

11.) LH (fast but a bit of a brat even though he had the humility to admit that his 2007 Monaco spat with FA was immature, a product of RD in every way, definitely talented)

12.) KR (overrated, losing his edge, no longer in the top 5 fastest FA, LH, SV, FM, RK, JT, and maybe JB are all faster, lazy attitude, expect him to retire after 2010, maybe even after 2009)

13.) HK (good attitude, humble, reliable, just not as fast as he could be, similar to DC and GF)

14.) RK (fast but a complete moaner, non-team player, hunger may be waning a bit)

15-19... the rest probably in this order... MW, KN, GF, SBu, AS,

20.) NP (slow, crasher, not worth a pay drive, dad was a worthy 3-time champ against a deep field but the talent didn't pass on)
Last edited by gcdugas on 11 Apr 2009, 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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lkocev:
I have a clear head mate. Unlike many people I don't have "hate McLaren" blinders on my face. I try to look at things with an objective attitude. Should McLaren have been penalised for giving misleading information? Yes. Have McLaren been penalised? Yes. Were McLaren penalised as a team? Yes. It wasn't just Lewis that was disqualified, the team was disqualified too. The matter shouldn't need to go any further. If Martin Whitmarsh lied to them in a second hearing, and the Stewards knew he was, then they shouldn't need to wait until a later date to deal a penalty. They knew that before they dealt the initial penalty of disqualification.

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Love the way your signature undercuts your protestations of "objective attitude"
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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

More important, attacks against persons in this forum make mods grumpy because of all of their precious time devoted to name-call-editing when they could be playing on their PCs a whole, peaceful Good Friday.
Ciro

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gcdugas
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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nudger wrote:......The world council will do whatever mosley tells them to do, and mosley wants dennis out of the picture, and possibly whitmarsh removed. That is my assesment of what is going on behind the scenes ..although i do acknowledge i may be misreading the situation, it is my honest point of view......
nudger wrote:
gcdugas wrote: Well at least you admit that this is 100% about a personal vendetta by Mosley and it has nothing to do with justice, proportion, past FIA dealings with other teams, or even the truthfulness of the FIA itself.
i never said that. i dont think it is 100% vendetta. The fia are entittled to bring mclaren infront of them ... having said that, the mistrust between the fia and certain people within mclaren is largely responcible for the situation. thats not justifying anyones actions, its just the way things are. But yes, i do think max will want to kick them harder for being mclaren. I dont think he realises that he is being vengeful...but then i dont think he realises that he is a psychologists wet dream
Ok, Max is "being vengeful" but it is not a "vendetta"? This is like LH saying he didn't "let JT by", he only "allowed him to pass"... You just said that Mosley wants RD out of the sport and is trying to run him (and MW?) out and that the "impartial FIA" are mere puppets on Modley's string. How is that not a vendetta?

OK let's just say it isn't 100% vendetta, how much is it? 90%, 20% or even 0.0001%? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Would you drink something that an HIV+ person spat in if the spit were only 0.0001% of the beverage? So too does Max's inability to set aside his personal animosities infect, and impair his actions as FIA president.

BTW, I could get on the pompous high horse of some people here and excoriate you for "lying" when you claimed "you never said that" and I presented you with the "transcripts" of what you said but you still insisted in shading the meaning of your previous statement when you said "I don't think he [Max} realizes it" as if that changes the effect of his actions. I am not trying to claim any moral superiority by "forgiving you this sin". What I am trying to do is to say that without an exact transcript of what LH was asked and exactly how he answered, we cannot tell the degree to which he intended to deceive. LH might have been trying to be cute and creatively evasive, his recollection might not have been 100% accurate as yours wasn't when you said "I never said that" when clearly you did say words substantially to that effect.

Its Good Friday for heaven's sake. Let's stop trying to lynch LH. Let him take his penalty and go on. If the FIA was willing to penalize JT his podium finish when they, by their ruling, had to believe he lied saying LH let him by, then that same penalty should be enough for LH when he was the one they now know is lying. Enough already. We don't need this WMSC nonsense. Could you see the FIFA dragging David Beckham of Ronaldinho before their chambers because they faked tripping when the defender got the ball away from they legitimately?

"Why a champion player of that caliber should never try to decieve an official" "hang him by the balls" "banish him and his team forever" "fire all their trainers and coaches" "put the team on probation for twenty million seasons and give them the death penalty if it ever happens again".... uggh. Enough. The FIA make me sick. It is 100% the FIA's fault for blowing this whole thing up. OK, so he lied.... well why didn't the FIA get all indignant when they ruled that JT's version was untrue?

Let's all move on and enjoy the season... if only the forthcoming diffuser matter doesn't blow up.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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lkocev
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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donskar wrote:lkocev:
I have a clear head mate. Unlike many people I don't have "hate McLaren" blinders on my face. I try to look at things with an objective attitude. Should McLaren have been penalised for giving misleading information? Yes. Have McLaren been penalised? Yes. Were McLaren penalised as a team? Yes. It wasn't just Lewis that was disqualified, the team was disqualified too. The matter shouldn't need to go any further. If Martin Whitmarsh lied to them in a second hearing, and the Stewards knew he was, then they shouldn't need to wait until a later date to deal a penalty. They knew that before they dealt the initial penalty of disqualification.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forever McLaren-Mercedes
Love the way your signature undercuts your protestations of "objective attitude"
I'm not protesting that I have purely an objective attitude. What I wrote was that I TRY to look at this situation with an objective attitude, despite being a die-hard McLaren fan. I make no secrets of that, other wise it wouldn't be my signature. If I wasn't trying to look at things with an objective attitude then why would I say that McLaren were deserving of the penalty they were dealt? I'm honestly sick of having to defend myself and my posts from you, who never really makes constructive arguments against mine, instead just makes personal attaks.

I agree with alot the things what gcdugas is posting, and in both his and my defence, we are not and never were suggesting that McLaren and Lewis should not have been disqualified. I agree that they were deserving of being disqualified, and I would never suggest that they didn't lie or that anyone forced them to lie. What I don't like is how this situation was dealt with by the Stewards, and the fact McLaren are going to appear before the World Motor Sport Council.
vall wrote:The pentalies have already been dealt with for that particular race. Now FIA want to see how much the team as a whole was involved because there are indications (e.g. MW insisting they did not lie!) that they were. And also way they got stuck to their story at the second hearing
What does it matter how much the team was involved, the bottom line is that they are proven to have lied, and were penalised. If it was Whitmarsh who instructed Lewis and Dave Ryan to lie is not really important. The end result should always be the same, they need to be penalised. The fact that the FIA is so intent on understanding exactly who gave what order, seems to me that they want to know that so that they can get certain people out of McLaren. With respect its not really the FIA's job to tell McLaren how to operate and who they have working for them. All they need to do is stay within the rules, if they don't, then give them a penalty, simple.

I understand that it is a big alligation to suggest that it is a personal vendetta against McLaren that is driving this. But from the outside that is how it appears to me. And in defence of gcdugas, its not unreasonable that we have questions for the FIA and the Melbourne race Stewards, if they can make such a mess of things as they have in this case, then what is to say they havn't done so in the past that we don't know about? what is to say that they won't continue to make a mess of things like they have?

Sounding like a broken record, McLaren have been penalised rightfully. That should be then end of the matter. The fact it isn't the end of the matter suggests to me that this is no longer about enforcing simple rules.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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As several people have rightly said the buck stops at Martin's desk. He was there, he knew everything. He then fired Dave Ryan for something he knew about and did not stop. There is a reason why responsibilities are assigned. LH got punished for his part but those who advised him received very different treatment. Dave was fired and Martin continues to enjoy his top job. It is not unreasonable to question if responsibilities are dealt with correctly in this case.
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Chaparral
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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Dave was fired and Martin continues to enjoy his top job.
WB thats just being vindictive - as you are normally or what suits your agenda - so you have inside information on this whole incident I suppose - and your personal friends with Dave Ryan or Martin Whitmarsh so you would know what exactly went down - and with Whitmarsh only a month in the job and Ryan essentially running the team for a couple of decades you would castigate him i.e Whitmarsh - gee Im glad I don't work for you in the Munich franchise for Goodyear - your now a tyre specialist :shock: :roll:
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Chaparral
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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For what its worth here is a subscription from Autosport of the issue - to be honest this is no more than a bloody soap opera - we may as well be reading Womens Weeky or New Idea or one of those magazines :lol: :lol:

Revealed: The truth behind the lie

For the first time since McLaren became embroiled in the lastest scandal to hit Formula 1, FIA race director Charlie Whiting has gone on the record to Adam Cooper to explain his version of the events that took place at the end of the Australian Grand Prix

By Adam Cooper




From its humble beginnings the Lewis Hamilton affair exploded over the Malaysian Grand Prix weekend, and the full extent of the fallout has yet to be determined. Absolutely anything might happen when the World Motor Sport Council meets on April 29, and given the recent history of McLaren and its dealings with the FIA, a severe punishment could result.

It's certainly gone way beyond what I envisaged when I inadvertently kick started the thing in Melbourne on Sunday evening. Having heard Lewis explain quite clearly outside parc ferme that he had been asked to let Jarno Trulli past, I couldn't understand why the Italian had been so severely punished. And I felt it appropriate to ask the FIA's top people how such a curious decision could have been arrived at.

At the time it was simply a question of believing that the Toyota driver had been hard done by.

But when it became apparent that Hamilton had told a different story to the stewards to the one I'd heard, and that I had in effect alerted the FIA to that fact, I began to wonder where things might lead.

Over the past 12 days or so there's been a lot of speculation about who said or did what in the stewards' room, and thus it seems logical to ask for the views of one of the men who was close to the centre of the storm. In his role as FIA race director Charlie Whiting was in the hearings in Melbourne and Sepang, along with Hamilton, McLaren sporting director Dave Ryan, the three stewards and their chairman Alan Donnelly.

To understand how the situation developed you have to appreciate that race control was not aware of the original incident until Ryan brought it to their attention.
Trulli's mistake at the penultimate corner and Hamilton's subsequent pass were not shown live at the time, and nor was the 'readjustment' that happened just a few corners later.


Robert Kubica crashes in the final laps of the Australian Grand Prix © LAT
Not surprisingly Whiting and his colleagues had their hands full, since the Kubica/Vettel incident had just happened. Two cars had been involved in heavy impacts with the wall, and wheels and other debris was thrown onto the track. The safety car was dispatched (bringing with it all the added complications of the new dashboard system which race control had to carefully monitor), and a medical car was sent to the accident scene.

In addition Vettel had crawled away with a front wheel bouncing precariously around, and asking Red Bull Racing to stop him was a priority for the stewards. Just to make matters more complicated, all this was happening on the penultimate lap, and it was clear that we would have a safety car finish, which had to be properly managed.

Given everything that was going on, it's hardly surprising that a kerfuffle over third and fourth places in the safety car queue was not immediately apparent – and there was certainly no reason for McLaren's radio communications to be monitored live.

"We didn't notice what happened at the time," says Whiting. "But Dave Ryan asked us on the intercom whether Lewis had to give the place back. We hadn't actually seen the incident, for obvious reasons, and therefore I was reluctant to get drawn into any conversation, because I simply didn't have any facts."

Race control gets many such enquiries over the course of an event, often from over- zealous team managers who – like Ryan – are under enormous pressure to make the right calls. Whiting can't always provide a definitive answer, especially if other events have priority, and the onus is on the team to know the rules and react accordingly.

Whiting had nevertheless been alerted to a potential issue, and that was backed up by the FIA's own procedures.

"We were involved with other things, but the timekeepers always tell us if there are any overtaking moves under the safety car. Every time a car comes through a loop you can see if there's been any overtaking.

"In pure timekeeping terms, we were informed that Hamilton had passed Trulli, but he'd let him back past. As far as I was concerned, I didn't know under what circumstances Hamilton had passed Trulli. It emerged later on that the pass on Trulli was completely legitimate.

"During the slowing down lap Dave again come on to me, because he was keen to get Lewis onto the podium. I said look, it's impossible. We're looking for it, and it will just have to wait, and we'll go with things as they are."


Dave Ryan © LAT
That certainly suggests that Ryan was aware that he – or the team – had made an unnecessary call in asking Lewis to swap places again. Obviously like everyone else he hadn't seen it at the time, and had only Hamilton's brief description of Trulli's grassy excursion to go on. Given the fuss in Spa last year, he was understandably nervous about leaving Hamilton exposed to a penalty.

With the race safely concluded, the Trulli/Hamilton incident was added to the stewards' job list, along with all the regular post-race stuff and the potentially far more controversial examination of the Kubica/Vettel collision.

It was some time before the safety car incident popped up at the top of the list, in part because Trulli was detained by the podium ceremony, the TV unilaterals, the media centre press conference and finally the 'scrum' of TV interviews. It was at least an hour after the flag before he was able to visit the stewards. Hamilton and Ryan, in effect called in as witnesses to a potential transgression by Trulli, waited their turn.

At this stage the stewards saw no reason to look for any radio conversations or examine telemetry, as it appeared to be a pretty straightforward case that could be resolved by interview.

Nor was there any video footage immediately to hand: "The problem was that the camera that was pointing from T5 down towards T4 had been moved around to have a look at Kubica's accident, which had happened after T5. So we didn't have anything."

An on-board view from the Toyota would later emerge. But at the time the only thing that could help Trulli was if there were mitigating circumstances for the pass – in other words did Hamilton have a problem, or had he deliberately slowed to let the Toyota back through? The key element of the F1 Sporting Regulations was Article 40.7: "Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances... if any car slows with an obvious problem."

If that was the case, or Hamilton admitted that he’d deliberately allowed the Toyota through, then there was no story. Trulli's pass would have been considered a fair one, and a statement would have been issued to the effect that "no further action will be taken."

Had the pass under yellows been for 15th place there would still have been an investigation. But since this involved third and fourth, and hence a big chunk of points, it was obviously important to get it right. As is normal procedure, the stewards assessed the possible outcomes in a 'pre-discussion' before they met the drivers, and thus knew exactly what to ask them.

"We looked at the incident of Trulli going off," says Whiting. "And thought well, that was legitimate because he was completely off the track.

"Listening to the two drivers, it was clear – from the evidence that we were given at the time – that Trulli had in fact passed Hamilton, and Hamilton had not let him past. That was the story, if you'll forgive the word. That was the evidence that the drivers gave. Hence the stewards made that decision.

"Jarno said that he was absolutely convinced that Lewis was either letting him past, or was slowing with an obvious problem, as the expression in the regulations goes. Therefore he passed him. Rather gingerly, he just sort of looked, is this right is this wrong?

"But he was convinced that the fact Lewis had pulled off line, or way off line according to Jarno, meant it was legitimate. He felt a bit uncomfortable; hence he asked his team whether he'd done the right thing. The team didn't ask us about it, they dealt with it themselves."

Trulli knew the rules. He'd never forgotten being penalised at Hockenheim in 2000 for a safety car transgression involving eventual winner Rubens Barrichello, and in Fuji two years ago he had lost two places when he had an off behind the safety car. He realised that you could not re-pass.


Lewis Hamilton arrives at Sepang © LAT
Hamilton had an explanation for his move off the racing line: "Lewis's account of the story was yes, he pulled off line, or he drove off line, but he was concerned about some debris from the previous accident, or something along those lines. I can't remember the exact expression," explained Whiting.

"He also said something about being distracted by the safety car dash display. I think that was a bit of a red herring. Although it is still operational, the drivers know they don't have to follow it once they've finished the lap during which it's activated. Nevertheless he attempted to say he had other things on his mind at that time, and that was one of them."

The key thing is that Hamilton was asked very specifically whether there had been team instructions related to the pass. The question was put by local Australian steward Steve Chopping – a criminal lawyer incidentally – who even repeated it to make sure Lewis was not mistaken. Whiting then pursued that route further, determining whether Lewis had made his own decision, with or without instructions.

"When asked very clearly did you consciously let him past, did you pull over to let him past, he said 'No.' The question was asked more than once. He was adamant that he hadn't slowed down and hadn't let Trulli past. It was very clear from that evidence that Jarno had taken it upon himself to overtake, rather than be let past.

"I was in the interviews with Trulli and Hamilton, and once the interviewing is done, I leave and the stewards make their decision. In nearly every incident you have two conflicting stories. That's what judges have to do isn't it? Judge which is the right one."

In effect the stewards discounted Trulli's story, and went with Hamilton's version of events.

As another FIA source told me: "Frankly if the world champion comes in, in a situation that wasn't controversial – he was only coming to give supplementary evidence to decide whether Trulli or not would be penalised – why would you not want to believe what he was saying?”

Jarno was given the standard 25s penalty, the equivalent of a stop and go had the incident happened earlier in the race. Given that the field crossed the line under the safety car, he suffered far more than he normally would have, dropping from third to 12th.

It was then that events took a different turn. His work done, chairman of the stewards Alan Donnelly left race control and went to the paddock, which is when I bumped into him. Stunned by the news of the Trulli penalty, I asked him how someone could lose a third place when the driver ahead had let him past, as Hamilton had clearly explained straight after the race. To my surprise, Donnelly confirmed that that was not the story Hamilton had told in the hearing.

Later I heard via Martin Brundle that Martin Whitmarsh had told the BBC that Trulli had passed Hamilton of his own accord, which again seemed curious. Lewis also hosted a private gathering for British newspaper journalists, and my colleagues confirmed that there had been no mention of the incident.


Charlie Whiting © XPB
Clearly something wasn't quite right, so later I went to find Whiting to seek his version of events, as I often do if some unusual aspect of the rules has come into play during a race. When I found him he was on his way from race control to the car park with FIA observer Herbie Blash. After a hard weekend of protests and appeals – and some very late nights at the track – the last thing either man needed was some more controversy. But Whiting listened to what I had to say about Lewis's earlier comments, and he too confirmed that it did not match what the stewards were told by Hamilton.

He now admits that even before our chat his suspicions had been aroused, more by Hamilton's general demeanour than anything else. It was clear that the matter deserved a more detailed examination, and the priority was to find the recording of the McLaren radio conversation.

"We did have a look for it afterwards," says Whiting. "I just felt a bit uncomfortable. I could understand why the stewards made the decision they did based on the evidence they heard, but a gut feeling is not enough for the stewards to make a different decision. Poking around in the files afterwards, it [the conversation] came to light."

Whiting and Donnelly later compared notes and arranged a meeting for around 5pm on Monday in their hotel in downtown Melbourne, where they had a chance to properly reflect on what had occurred.

"I told Alan about it, we felt a little bit uncomfortable, so we met on Monday and decided what we should do," says Whiting. "I felt there was an injustice here, in my opinion. I told Alan exactly what had been said, and he decided that it would be appropriate to reconvene the stewards in Malaysia.

"It was quite fortunate in that it wasn't too difficult for the local steward [Chopping] to fly out from Melbourne to Kuala Lumpur, and one of the FIA stewards [Olafur Gudmundsson] was still in Melbourne and was due to come back that way anyway."

The third steward, Radovan Novak, was not available to make the trip. But under FIA rules a replacement was co-opted in the form of Surinder Thatthi, who was already due to serve in Malaysia.

Reconvening the stewards is unusual, not least because of the logistical problems. But if 'new evidence' emerges, any aspect of a race can be revisited. It happened in Hungary after the first corner incident at the 2003 German GP, in which Ralf Schumacher, Rubens Barrichello and Kimi Raikkonen were caught up.

A time was set for 1pm on Thursday, in essence to get things out of the way before the Sepang event officially clicked into gear at 3pm.

"Alan and I met again on Wednesday in Malaysia," says Whiting. "I gave him the recordings, and we listened to them together, and we had the hearing on Thursday."

Meanwhile there was no communication with the FIA from McLaren. It's clear that if there had been any signal from the camp between Sunday and Thursday, perhaps prompted by regrets voiced by Hamilton himself, then events could have taken a different turn. Even when AUTOSPORT reported on Wednesday night what was transpiring, the team seemingly failed to respond or realise how serious the situation might become.

When the second hearing began replacement steward Thatthi had to be formally brought up to speed on events, which is why Trulli was asked to come along and repeat his story. Jarno wasn't told about the new evidence, but he was aware that something was up.

The radio conversation was the heart of the second hearing. It later emerged that McLaren had assumed that the recording had already been heard by the stewards before the first hearing. That was used by Martin Whitmarsh on Thursday evening as an excuse for the situation the team now found itself in. It seemed a curious piece of logic. Given that the tape detailed a discussion about letting Jarno past, surely the stewards would have used it on Sunday evening to directly challenge the story they were hearing? After the recording was played and discussed, Hamilton and Ryan still stuck to their story.


Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton leave the stewards meeting at Sepang © LAT
"They obviously know that we listen to radio conversations, and at the time [of the first hearing] assumed that we'd heard them," says Whiting. "As a consequence they didn't think it was necessary to mention it. That was the thrust of it. We got into a little bit more detail of what happened when Trulli passed Lewis. Lewis did his best to fudge it, I would say, without responding completely and directly.

"I reminded him that I had asked him twice in Melbourne did you consciously let him past? And he'd said no, Trulli had just passed him. I then said when the team asked you to let him past, you said 'I've already let him past.' I said to him if you had been surprised by that, surely you would have said, 'he's passed me,' instead of 'I've let him past.'

"Lewis didn't really have an answer for that. They were trying very hard to get off the important bit of the subject, and trying to divert the stewards' attention elsewhere. That's the impression, I got anyway."

Then the interview Lewis had given after the race was played. Hamilton was asked how he could have given the 'team asked me to let him past' statement to the media on first alighting from the car, and yet had later given a different story when asked quite specific questions on the matter in the stewards' room.

As my other FIA source says: "At that point they both got very uncomfortable, but still denied that's what had actually happened. It was a bit surreal, that you had this situation where you had the radio evidence and the interview, and they were putting a completely different interpretation on what the words actually meant. But the words were very, very clear."

One extra piece of evidence from McLaren suggested that Hamilton hadn't slowed down. That was true – but then he hadn't sped up as normal out of the preceding corner.

"They showed us some telemetry that didn't show any negative acceleration," says Whiting. "It showed a very slow and gradual – albeit even – acceleration out of Turn 4. But not anywhere near what you'd expect to see."

Intriguingly Toyota had earlier submitted its own telemetry. It showed that on the lap when the safety car first came out, Trulli had been travelling at around 220km/h at that point. On the lap of the pass, his speed dropped as low as 81km/h. And on the next lap, in the safety car queue, he was doing 120km/h.

Whiting says that the Thursday hearing merely confirmed his earlier suspicions: "I listened to what Dave and Lewis had to say, and reached the same conclusion as I had before. The stewards reached a different conclusion to the one they reached before, and decided that they'd been deceived."

The decision, when it came, was a painful one for McLaren. And things would only get worse over the next 24 hours. On Friday morning Ryan was suspended, and in the afternoon Whitmarsh had to make a dramatic U-turn and admit that a team member had not told the truth. Later Hamilton made his own compelling solo appearance, during which he made it clear that he'd been instructed by Ryan.


Martin Whitmarsh addresses the media © LAT
Ryan has since left the employ of McLaren, and the fact that he seems to have taken the full blame for the affair is nothing short of a tragedy. He's always been one of the good guys of the sport, someone who kept everything in perspective. He was the longest continuously serving member of any F1 team still travelling to races, having started way back in 1974.

He commanded enormous respect within the paddock, and in his understated way, played a massive role within the organisation. As one insider said, forget Ron Dennis and Martin, the race team was Ryan's, and he ran it his way.

It just doesn't make sense that he would get himself into such a situation of his own volition, and the only conclusion can be that he was attempting to make up for a bad call in the heat of the moment. Everyone makes mistakes, but he seems to have paid an extraordinarily heavy price. Mike Coughlan wasn't the only McLaren employee tarnished by the spy affair, but others are still at Woking.

"I've always found Dave to be very easy guy to deal with," says Whiting, "I've never thought that he was lying to me. There's no reason for me to suppose that he's like that all the time. But I do believe that he attempted to mislead the stewards, I don't think there's any doubt about that in my mind.

"I was distinctly uncomfortable about Lewis's demeanour on Sunday, and on Thursday I would say he was just doing what he was told to do. On Sunday it was completely clear that he was telling lies.

"The fact that he came and apologised to me in Sepang sums it up pretty much. He came to me and wanted to talk to me privately, and just said he wanted to apologise for everything he'd done, and he wouldn't do it again, that sort of thing."

The FIA has made it clear that Hamilton is no longer a 'suspect' – if anything he is now seen as a victim – and the entire focus is now on the team's behaviour. Ryan was McLaren's representative, so the team is responsible for his actions – even if you believe that nobody else was in the loop.

And that's something that the FIA no doubt wants to examine further. It is possible that Ryan and Hamilton didn't tell anyone exactly what had transpired in the Sunday hearing, and that nobody else knew until after the Sepang verdict. But everyone on the pit wall was party to the radio discussions. Is it really possible that nobody asked themselves (or anyone else) the obvious question – how on earth did Trulli get a penalty if we let him by?

I guess that comes back to Whitmarsh's earlier assumption that the stewards had heard those radio conversations. The management may argue that it believed that Trulli was excluded even though the stewards had heard the radio traffic, so there was no need to question Ryan or Hamilton about what exactly was said in the first meeting. The most bizarre thing is that in McLaren's own post race press release Norbert Haug expressly said that Lewis had let Trulli past.

Since Ryan has now gone, he is under no obligation to appear before the WMSC. Thus the team's only witness to what was said in the two meetings is Hamilton, but bringing him back to centre stage will necessarily involve him in the mess once again, and that's something that the FIA may not to want to do. However, he may be keen to come and clarify his story. After all he involved himself in the spy hearings when he did not have to, showing up with his personal lawyer.

One question surely has to be asked – if Hamilton really did feel uncomfortable with what transpired on the Sunday evening, why did he not communicate his thoughts to anybody else in the days that followed? Did he tell his father Anthony what had transpired? Things did move quickly on Sunday night – although as noted earlier there was a time lag between the chequered flag and the hearing – but it seems hard to comprehend that Lewis could go into the second hearing with an unchanged story, without at the very least having sorted things out with Ryan beforehand.

If Lewis does not appear in Paris it will probably leave Whitmarsh and Ron Dennis as the likely key speakers on April 29. Ron was on the pit wall in Australia and was in contact with Whitmarsh through the Malaysian weekend, but he didn't appear in person, and thus far has made no public statements on the subject.

It's understandable that he was keen to let Martin demonstrate that he is now in charge and let him deal with the crisis. But he will almost certainly have some very strong views on an incident that has, without a doubt, already seriously damaged the company.

Trying to duck out of responsibility for a collision is standard practice, but a team member and driver colluding to deprive a rival of a podium finish – apparently to 'correct' an error they themselves made – is clearly something else again.

Nevertheless, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that taking this to the WMSC may be overkill on the FIA's part. McLaren's problem is that the spy affair means that the team will forever more be under a form of suspended sentence – and the FIA is bound to take any wrong doing very seriously indeed. The trick of course is to not present them with any such opportunity in the first place...
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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gcdugas
3
Joined: 19 Sep 2006, 21:48

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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.


Try as they might, the FIA just can't evade the facts. Even when they surround them with many words and events, the truth is still there for all to see...
At this stage the stewards saw no reason [Why not? Isn't that their job?] to look for any radio conversations or examine telemetry, as it appeared to be a pretty straightforward case that could be resolved by interview.

Nor was there any video footage immediately [So wait for the rest to be examined before making a hasty ruling... Duh!] to hand: "The problem was that the camera that was pointing from T5 down towards T4 had been moved around to have a look at Kubica's accident, which had happened after T5. So we didn't have anything."

An on-board view from the Toyota would later emerge. [From the ether... Shazam! Look what came from nowhere!] But at the time [The time between the checkered flag and the stewards impending cocktail party.] the only thing that could help Trulli was if there were mitigating circumstances for the pass – in other words did Hamilton have a problem, or had he deliberately slowed to let the Toyota back through? The key element of the F1 Sporting Regulations was Article 40.7: "Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances... if any car slows with an obvious problem."

If that was the case, or Hamilton admitted that he’d deliberately allowed the Toyota through, then there was no story. Trulli's pass would have been considered a fair one, and a statement would have been issued to the effect that "no further action will be taken."

Had the pass under yellows been for 15th place there would still have been an investigation. But since this involved third and fourth, and hence a big chunk of points, it was obviously important to get it right. As is normal procedure, the stewards assessed the possible outcomes in a 'pre-discussion' before they met the drivers, and thus knew exactly what to ask them.

"We looked at the incident of Trulli going off," says Whiting. "And thought well, that was legitimate because he was completely off the track.

"Listening to the two drivers, it was clear – from the evidence that we were given at the time [There is that deceitful phrase again, we're not supposed to ask why they didn't seek out more evidence and conduct a complete investigation before issuing a ruling.. shhhhh.] – that Trulli had in fact passed Hamilton, and Hamilton had not let him past. That was the story, if you'll forgive the word. That was the evidence that the drivers gave. Hence the stewards made that decision.

"Jarno said that he was absolutely convinced that Lewis was either letting him past, or was slowing with an obvious problem,
[But the stewards summarily dismissed his statement, treated it as a lie, and investigated the matter no further.] as the expression in the regulations goes. Therefore he passed him. Rather gingerly, he just sort of looked, is this right is this wrong?

"But he was convinced that the fact Lewis had pulled off line, or way off line according to Jarno, meant it was legitimate. He felt a bit uncomfortable; hence he asked his team whether he'd done the right thing. The team didn't ask us about it, they dealt with it themselves." [This is a devious little dig at Toyota who didn't need to refer the matter to the FIA as LH clearly pulled off-line and slowed. But Mac who was referring things to the FIA on the radio should have known that they were busy with RK/SV matters, and the "onus is on them". You can't have it both ways. Why don't you laud Toyota for "dealing with it themselves" rather than making it seem that doing so was underhanded?]
Race control gets many such enquiries over the course of an event, often from over- zealous team managers who – like Ryan [Do you see the blame shifting subtlety of the FIA here? Ryan did it one way, and he was characterized as "over-zealous" and Toyota did it the opposite way and they were placed under a cloud because "they didn't ask us". Anything to serve the FIA's spin on things. "Pay no attention to the incompetant stewards behind the curtain. The great and powerful Oz, er, Max, has spoken."] – are under enormous pressure to make the right calls. Whiting can't always provide a definitive answer, especially if other events have priority, and the onus is on the team to know the rules and react accordingly.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

donskar
donskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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OK, it's a VERY slow day at the dealership, so . . .
a team member and driver colluding to deprive a rival of a podium finish – apparently to 'correct' an error they themselves made – is clearly something else again.

Nevertheless, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that taking this to the WMSC may be overkill on the FIA's part. McLaren's problem is that the spy affair means that the team will forever more be under a form of suspended sentence – and the FIA is bound to take any wrong doing very seriously indeed. The trick of course is to not present them with any such opportunity in the first place...
Can we back up to see if we can find some foundation to work from?

The above bolded statement is either true or false, right?

If it is true (meaning it represents what happened), then Mclaren committed a pretty serious transgression.

They have been punished, but the rules of the FIA allow for further punishment.

I hate Max and Bernie and would gladly see both of them out of F1, but I don't see in the above much to indicate there was even time for some sort of anti-McLaren conspiracy to be developed. The punishment may or may not fit the crime, but the first key point is whether or not there was a crime -- and IMHO we have to agree there was.

Another key point that has been beaten to death is the honesty of the "police." That's a red herring. Rules are rules and must be obeyed or the consequences accepted. (Or the rules must be changed, but that's a digression.) The fact that the FIA/"police" are not pure does not invalidate the rules.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

andartop
andartop
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Joined: 08 Jun 2008, 22:01
Location: London, UK

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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gcdugas wrote:
Ok, Max is "being vengeful" but it is not a "vendetta"? This is like LH saying he didn't "let JT by", he only "allowed him to pass"... You just said that Mosley wants RD out of the sport and is trying to run him (and MW?) out and that the "impartial FIA" are mere puppets on Modley's string. How is that not a vendetta?

OK let's just say it isn't 100% vendetta, how much is it? 90%, 20% or even 0.0001%? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Would you drink something that an HIV+ person spat in if the spit were only 0.0001% of the beverage? So too does Max's inability to set aside his personal animosities infect, and impair his actions as FIA president.

BTW, I could get on the pompous high horse of some people here and excoriate you for "lying" when you claimed "you never said that" and I presented you with the "transcripts" of what you said but you still insisted in shading the meaning of your previous statement when you said "I don't think he [Max} realizes it" as if that changes the effect of his actions. I am not trying to claim any moral superiority by "forgiving you this sin". What I am trying to do is to say that without an exact transcript of what LH was asked and exactly how he answered, we cannot tell the degree to which he intended to deceive. LH might have been trying to be cute and creatively evasive, his recollection might not have been 100% accurate as yours wasn't when you said "I never said that" when clearly you did say words substantially to that effect.

Its Good Friday for heaven's sake. Let's stop trying to lynch LH. Let him take his penalty and go on. If the FIA was willing to penalize JT his podium finish when they, by their ruling, had to believe he lied saying LH let him by, then that same penalty should be enough for LH when he was the one they now know is lying. Enough already. We don't need this WMSC nonsense. Could you see the FIFA dragging David Beckham of Ronaldinho before their chambers because they faked tripping when the defender got the ball away from they legitimately?

"Why a champion player of that caliber should never try to decieve an official" "hang him by the balls" "banish him and his team forever" "fire all their trainers and coaches" "put the team on probation for twenty million seasons and give them the death penalty if it ever happens again".... uggh. Enough. The FIA make me sick. It is 100% the FIA's fault for blowing this whole thing up. OK, so he lied.... well why didn't the FIA get all indignant when they ruled that JT's version was untrue?

Let's all move on and enjoy the season... if only the forthcoming diffuser matter doesn't blow up.
a)As far as I know LAW is always much more forgiving the first time someone goes against it, but repeating a "crime" usually incurs more severe penalties. This is not considered to be a "vendetta" against a specific person, it just follows on the basis that a more severe punishment might deter the offender from offending AGAIN.

b)HIV has never been shown to be transmitted through saliva.

c)I really enjoyed the bit about LH trying to be cute and creatively evasive! Thanks! :lol:

d)If you really cannot see the difference in this specific incident between JT saying that he thought LH slowed down due to a problem and LH saying he was not instructed by his team to slow down and he did not slow down, I guess no matter what anyone says you will still be missing the whole point.. But just to help you a little bit on that consider if there is a difference between a driver who causes an accident and a drunk driver who causes an accident and insists that he wasn't drunk, and then the blood test proves he was drunk..

e)Bottom line is, the FIA make a lot of people sick, for different reasons. But regardless of their motives, this is a rare case when they 're obviously doing the right thing, that is being very strict against a bunch of liars. You could accuse them of many things, but how can you keep on moaning about this, I cannot see.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft