F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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WhiteBlue
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Now, I concede that if you have the money to build a new road around Nürburgring, you can build a track site there without being accused of murder.
I must say that the new Nürburgring is very poor compared with the old Nordschleiffe. Let us go 20 years back in time and assume that you had 10 times the budget it took the German Club to build the current ring what kind of project would you have quoted to the ADAC? Can you give a a rough spec of track length and what would be differnt to the poor South Loop that we have now? I know that we didn't have a billionaire at that time who wanted to donate but we can simply make an assumption and find out what improvements a huge budget could have made.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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If I'm not mistaken, the Nordschleife has 22 or 23 km. I think you should ask Mr. Gustav Eichler, its designer, for a good estimate. ;)

Its construction as a modern road involves important earth movement, I assume. It has a puny 9 m wide for most of its length.

A rough estimate for the road, without major earth movements (something I doubt) would be around 50 million. Not much, compared with what a car costs.

Throw in another 10-15 million more for widening and I don't know how much for earth walls (the hills are steep), because I don't know what the soil is made of, nor how steep can it be shaped without sliding.

That's without stands, pits, bridges, boxculverts or anything else, of course. A bridge costs between 50 to 100 times as much as a road of the same length, so I don't know if you would contemplate long ones to straighten some curves.

I don't know if drivers would like it. You have to become an expert to learn 22 km of curves, in hilly terrain, compared with the 12-15 curves of a modern "flat" track where, after a weekend or so, you know most of the braking points by heart.

I think that was the reason why geniuses (or madmen) could take so much advantage in so few laps at that track. Prior to 1971, the Gesamtstrecke had 174 curves! After 1971 some curves were elliminated, I haven't counted them.

Safety run-off areas are impossible to build (or, better said, extremely expensive) for most of the track length, so we probably are talking of improved barriers at many sites, NASCAR style. I wonder what kind of barriers you should build to stop a car in a couple of meters... guaranteeing they won't break, allowing the car to pass through and also guaranteeing that they won't break your neck if you hit them. We're talking, probably of ARMCO barriers only, modern barriers in that length would be truly expensive.

To get a better idea, try to imagine building an Autobahn in that kind of terrain, and Autobahns certainly don't have 300 kph design speed! Braking lengths, vertical curves, almost everything increases to the square of the speed.

The safety posts for marshalls and the coordination of the track, the extraction of drivers by helicopter, the ambulances, the side road (how would you build it?) for emergency vehicles, well...

Just the location of paramedics or (several, I imagine) safety cars would be complicated to design, to say the least. How many TV cameras would you need?

Imagine trying to design the sites for overtaking... Scot would be furious about it. :D Overtaking, I imagine, would be minimal, or we start to talk of serious bridges to straighten the thing.

Everything is three or four times what you need for a current track (maintenance, personnel, resurfacing), so tickets would cost three or four times more. I don't know how many people would pay 2.000 or 3.000 dollars for a ticket... You could construct more stands, true, but you have to pay for its construction (on steep hillsides).

Besides, with such huge laps, spectators could go for a beer and come back before watching a car again.

So the specs I would ask for include, besides the things I've mentioned, mainly naked pit babes (or something! Mosley fighting Montezemolo and Dennis in a cage, chained to the neck...) to entertain you while the cars pass again.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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After the first posts on this issue I had given up on the idea to keep the full length of the Nordschleife. But a compromise between the existing south loop and the north loop would have been a good idea.

The old track was mainly build by the Prussian States (for 4 mil Reichsmarks) to create employment, for racing and to serve as a test track for the auto industry. In actual fact it still serves that purpose and is extremely busy all year long.

I like the way F1 has adapted Spa which also was considerably longer originally and I thought that you may have had a look at the terrain to come up with a similar strategy as used in Belgium.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

gridwalker
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Ciro Pabón wrote:
gridwalker wrote:Seeing as we're talking about elevation changes and gradient : the first time that I stood at the bottom of Eau Rouge, I was taken aback by how much steeper it was than it appears on the television screen. Does anybody know what the steepest gradient is on the current F1 calendar?
Well, I think you just saw it at the Grand Hotel hairpin, (formerly known as Loews hairpin and before that as Station hairpin), in Monaco.

I estimate it has around 20% of gradient (which is barbaric ;)) in the inner part of the curve, because of the transition of the sideslope, which can increase the "true" centerline gradient by 8 or 10%, tops.

If I try to measure it, using the sea horizon in the background as a horizontal line, I get around 27%, but I cannot believe my own figures. Something must be wrong with the image perspective, or it is an insane slope, pick your choice. Few roads have above 10%, most tables for calculations go up to 8%.

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That makes sense. I hadn't taken into account the effect that the switchback on the hairpin would have on the gradient ... Thank you :)
Ciro Pabón wrote:Brands Hatch (or any american oval!) is a notable example of a track where you can watch almost the entire track from the grandstands (instead of relying on a large screen, or worse yet, watching only one curve from your 500 dollars seats).

Brands Hatch natural amphiteater (well, for England, which is not precisely the Himalayas). I would cut down the trees... but probably I would be killed by the local Greenpeace chapter.
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I know exactly what you mean : the view from the top floor VIP boxes (the white building on the far left, at the end of the grandstand) is absolutely SUPERB.

I won a competition in the mid 90's and was given a batch of VIP tickets for a Eurocar meeting - you could see almost everything :)

As for the trees, it is a shame from a fan's perspective, but it's part of the circuit's character and heritage. The corner Dingle Dell is even named after them, as a dell is a small wooded valley.

As ever, it's a matter of trade-offs. The field of view from the Brands grandstand is still significantly better than any other grandstand seat that I've sat in ... though I wouldn't say the spectacle was comparable to my grandstand seat at Eau Rouge ;)
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

architect
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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yeah i agreee....tilke has ruined the tracks like shanghai and sepang.but if u throw light on the panorama of formula 1 since past 50 years...formula 1 is drifting from just being a racing event from being a sport entertainment...and in doing that..tilke is a master...have u ever imagined sum1 enjoying his dinner and he sees down and a f1 car passes.i know,the likes of monaco and other have provided this,but what about people at other places.being an architect,rather than just focusing on the racing side of f1,consider it as a public sport,a public facility..n dont 4gt..tilke is first a racer thn an engineer and then an architect

modbaraban
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Now watching GT Open highlights. Round 2 Portimao. Spectacular yet modern circuit. Looks like a mix of A1-ring and Turkey. Close racing all the way through with a photofinish (0.03 sec between a 911 and F430).

Modern regulations and standards do not dictate boring circuit design. Fact.

Belatti
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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What about the new semi-permanent track in San Luis province, Argentina, where FIA GT took place last year?

Last week I did a couple of laps arround it whit my street car. Have it on video :D

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"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Belatti wrote: Last week I did a couple of laps arround it whit my street car. Have it on video :D
What kind of car? please share the vid

gridwalker
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
Belatti wrote: Last week I did a couple of laps arround it whit my street car. Have it on video :D
What kind of car? please share the vid
Seconded : the track looks stunning ...

I think I'm going to try and look up the FIA GT footage.

**EDIT**

Mmmmmmmm ... tasty ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO99ekYBZmQ[/youtube]
Last edited by gridwalker on 27 May 2009, 18:36, edited 4 times in total.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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San Luis looks really thrilling.

San Luis
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX-FMPXszs0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3LuK8SvlGU[/youtube]

Portimao
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnDDFza2hc8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStjVsLPnSk[/youtube]

Belatti
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
Belatti wrote: Last week I did a couple of laps arround it whit my street car. Have it on video :D
What kind of car? please share the vid
I have to learn to compress it before posting it in youtube, its an Avi video :oops:

The car? A Peugeot 307 Turbodiesel

The lap? Nothing impressive, have in mind that the semi-permanent track is open to the public and is actually part of the streets of the little town. I reached 140Kph in the lonely part but in others there where little kids riding bikes and families enjoying the afternoon, so had to do it at 30Kph.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

alexkyriak
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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All: brilliant thread. A very interesting read.

Scotracer: can you give me a link for the regulations you quote below? I can't seem to find this info on FIA website. Thanks alot.

QUOTING: Scotracer
[ Checking the circuit regulations:

•The maximum permitted length for straight sections of track is 2km.
•It is recommended that the length of any new circuit should not exceed 7 km.
•When planning new permanent circuits, the track width foreseen should be at least 12 m. Where the track width changes, the transition should be made as gradually as possible, at a rate not greater than 1 m in 20 m total width.
•Maximum Vertical radius R = V²/K (R = Radius, V = Velocity (Km/h) & K = Constant (20 for positive, 15 for negative)
•In curves, the banking (downwards from the outside to the inside of the track) should not exceed 10 %
•There should preferably be at least 250 m between the starting line and the fi rst corner.]

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WhiteBlue
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

alexkyriak
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Whiteblue, that's great thanks alot. :D

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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The links given by WB are more recent and I bet most of the following are dead, but once somebody asked about circuit regulations and we came with this "circuit regulations breakup" and gave links to some other books that could be relevant (I apologize for the long quoting). Who knows, it could be useful:

-- Start of quote --

Thanks, Kester, for the link, and welcome.

Architect, welcome. Here you have some links I've in my Favorites list, you probably know them already, most of them are taken from FIA's page on circuits regulations, but...

- Stadium design A Daab Design Book, U$27, good. I've taken info on stands, entrances and parking from this book (more like a pamphlet, but...)

- Trends in Stadium Design: A Whole New Game Some interesting ideas.

- F1 Technical Regulations, Appendix H: "Recommendations for the supervision of the road and emergency services".

Here you find rules of thumb about control room, starters platform, control posts on track, lights, and types of vehicles used (and thus, by inferrence, parking and access to track requirements).

- F1 Technical Regulations, Appendix O: "Procedures for the Recognition of Motor Racing Circuits".

Method for structure approval, some inspections and documents you have to present, list of circuit types (1-6 and ovals) and conditions for grading (very important if you do a design "by stages").

Here you have chapter 7 on circuit "conception": max length of straights (2 km), obligation of race-line oriented design (instead of using the centerline), max/min length of track and max number of starting cars (including practices) for grid design.

- FIA's "List of Requirements for the Circuit Drawing":

Specification of layers in Autocad, which gives you a clue about the types of vehicles, barriers, etc. you have to use. Includes some examples of drawings. If you ask FIA by mail, they will send you the examples in Autocad format.

- FIA's "Autocad templates with blocks and linetypes"

Includes some examples of drawings, Autocad blocks (dwg) of objects and a "blank" drawing.

- FIA's Procedures for the recognition of drag strips.

In case your design includes one, like the more recent tracks (check Bahrain, for example).

- FIA's "Recommended light signals for standing starts in circuit events"

Specs for flag lights (the ones that replace flags at some tracks) and start lights.

- Lodz-Nowosky Track design:

A project for a Formula One track, designed by two students as thesis (they might help a fellow architect), in Polish. You'll find their e-mails in the link at the bottom of the page.

- Apex's Clive Brown in a conference on circuit desing, using Power Civil

- Lewis Hamilton's perfect circuit

A mixture of curves taken from different circuits, put together by Mr. Hamilton. It might give you ideas, but it has all the characteristics of Frankenstein design. You know, Dr. Frankestein choose the best parts from cadavers and then he got a monster. It's what system engineers call "sub-optimization": it doesn't work, period. Anyway, click on "Supercircuit". He choose those curves:

1. Turn 8, Istanbul Speed Park
2. Estoril, Magny Cours
3. 130R, Suzuka
4. Eau Rouge, Spa-Francorchamps
5. Tabac, Monaco
6. Turn 1, Suzuka
7. Pouhon, Spa-Francorchamps
8. Casino Square, Monaco
9. Mergulho, Interlagos (I don't think Massa shares Hamilton's taste: at this curve he lost last championship)
10. Copse, Silverstone (7th gear, 290 kph, 4.5g)

Course Safety and Emergency Response in Motor Sport

Gives you some ideas about safety features.

Some famous designers websites:

Wilson Motorsport
Tilke
Motor Racing Design Consultants
Apex Motorsport Managements

-- End of quote --
Ciro