F1 active suspension

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.

allow active suspension: yes or no

YES
46
49%
NO
47
51%
 
Total votes: 93

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: F1 active suspension

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xpensive,

You make a valid point about the cost of multiple EMA's (Electro Mechanical Actuators) for the active aero system. But have you also considered the cost of developing the software and controllers for them? Or what about the weight for all of the wiring, linkages, and batteries necessary to drive those actuators? They would need to be high frequency actuators, which naturally means they would have high current draws.

The Williams and Lotus active suspension systems were electro-hydraulic with an engine driven pump. They were eventually made to work on an F1 race chassis, but only after a huge development effort. And they always were a huge maintenance headache. Since the hydraulic circuits had to be bled every time a suspension component was changed.

As for production cars, active suspension never really caught on due to cost and reliability issues. Some high-end cars use magneto-rheological fluids in active dampener systems. And many cars have very effective active stability control thru the use of their ABS and differentials.

Enjoy the discussion.
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: F1 active suspension

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Terry,
All pertinent angles of course Terry, but remember those systems were developed almost twenty years ago (actually BC, Before Cell-phones), the software, batteries and such has come a long way since. As for the weight, not much compared to a KERS system or the stupid ballast I'm sure.

Again, I simply wish to see some technical xcitement back at a reasonable cost, not a 50 MEUR per team KERS-development, leading nowhere.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: F1 active suspension

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xpensive wrote:Terry,
All pertinent angles of course Terry, but remember those systems were developed almost twenty years ago (actually BC, Before Cell-phones), the software, batteries and such has come a long way since. As for the weight, not much compared to a KERS system or the stupid ballast I'm sure.

Again, I simply wish to see some technical xcitement back at a reasonable cost, not a 50 MEUR per team KERS-development, leading nowhere.
+1 Bring back Active-Suspension for F1!

Traction control imo took away from a drivers skill to control the engine but imo AS enhances a drivers ability to get the most out of his car - the drivers cant adjust the suspension settings from the cockpit now so it's not like you are taking them out of the loop. In-fact with a couple of different presents (like engine maps), you'd be giving them more control than they have now.
"In downforce we trust"

timbo
timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: F1 active suspension

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djos wrote:Traction control imo took away from a drivers skill to control the engine but imo AS enhances a drivers ability to get the most out of his car - the drivers cant adjust the suspension settings from the cockpit now so it's not like you are taking them out of the loop. In-fact with a couple of different presents (like engine maps), you'd be giving them more control than they have now.
Ability for balancing the car (controlling weight transfer) is one of the prime feats of great racing driver. Given active suspension they don't have to care about that as much.

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: F1 active suspension

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What really impressed me about AS, was watching an F1 race many years ago. They had an in-car camera on Nigel Mansell's Williams that had AS. The camera was right next to the front wing looking forward, so you got a great view of the front wing and track surface. For an entire lap, Nigel's front wing remained perfectly parallel to the track surface, no matter how hard he accelerated, braked, or cornered. It was absolutely incredible how effective that AS worked.

Another impressive application of an AS system is the one used on the M1-A1 tank. 60 tons at 60MPH, and rock-steady.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

timbo
timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: F1 active suspension

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riff_raff wrote:What really impressed me about AS, was watching an F1 race many years ago. They had an in-car camera on Nigel Mansell's Williams that had AS. The camera was right next to the front wing looking forward, so you got a great view of the front wing and track surface. For an entire lap, Nigel's front wing remained perfectly parallel to the track surface, no matter how hard he accelerated, braked, or cornered. It was absolutely incredible how effective that AS worked.
Exactly - therefore you could have a much higher DF + it would change almost only with speed. Pretty easy to drive a car like this?
Sadly that resulted in 1994 monsters.

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: F1 active suspension

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AS and other gizmos even made a journey-man veteran like Patrese a winner and gave Frank Williams leverage to tell Mansell and Prost to shove it when their demands were to high. He knew that with such a car he needed no 10 MUSD primadonna, saving his money to develop the car. More power to him, I say.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: F1 active suspension

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timbo,

Consider this, Juan Montoya won 7 F1 races, but has only won 1 NASCAR race. Most people would consider F1 much more of a drivers' series than NASCAR. So why hasn't Juan been more successful racing against the unsophisticated country bumpkins in NASCAR?

It's because the driver is more important than most people appreciate.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: F1 active suspension

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riff_raff wrote:Consider this, Juan Montoya won 7 F1 races, but has only won 1 NASCAR race. Most people would consider F1 much more of a drivers' series than NASCAR. So why hasn't Juan been more successful racing against the unsophisticated country bumpkins in NASCAR?
Fair point, would you say that NASCAR guys would be as quick in F1?
I'd say it is unfair to compare the two sports - different requirements, and from what I heard a right team is as important in NASCAR as in F1.
riff raff wrote:It's because the driver is more important than most people appreciate.
No argument over this, but AS makes driver's life far easier. Hard to tell, but maybe as much as TC.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: F1 active suspension

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riff_raff wrote:Giblet,

Active suspension on F1 cars was, in effect, active aero. The main benefit of active suspension on an F1 chassis was that it virtually eliminated changes in pitch, roll and ride height. So the aero downforce and traction balance produced by the underbody was always perfectly consistent and predictable. Whether the car was accelerating, braking, cornering, or going straight at high/low speeds. In a straight line, the ride height and pitch (and thus downforce) could even be adjusted to reduce drag and allow higher straightaway speeds.

Most suspension design and tuning on an aero chassis with conventional suspension, like an F1 car, focuses on optimizing the performance of the underbody aerodynamics during cornering, braking, etc. Things like weight transfer and mechanical grip are usually secondary issues, since the underbody is so effective at producing downforce.

Purely active aero devices on an F1 car would be a huge engineering effort. The sheer number of actuators required for all of the wing elements, undertray, and spoilers would be huge, expensive, and would require a very complex controller, instrumentation and software system.

But having said that, the active suspension systems used in F1 before they were banned, gave truly impressive performance.

Regards,
Terry
I knew all that, but thanks.

Active suspension is a mechanical device that keeps the car level, and keeps the aero consistent. The mass damper could be argued to be in the same ballpark,so you must agree with the FIA in the classification of aero parts :)

A movable flap is active aero, and doesn't affect the pitch of the car the same way as active suspension, that is why I think this post is convoluted, and so is the votable topic.

Active aero would not cost as much, but active suspension allowed Williams to dominate because they were the only team with it (as far as developed properly) and were untouchable.

In the modern era, it will be about who has the best active ride, and having the best of something in F1 cost a --- LOAD of money. The amount of performance that comes from active suspension, and to a lesser extent active aero, would meant that it would be a contest of the best active car, not the best drivers in the best cars fighting it out. After a while the teams will start h=chasing tiny incremental gains in that department, and either other departments might suffer, or the cost will spiral out of control (AGAIN) and it will be rebanned.

We need to learn form history, not repeat it;'s failures.

There was also the constant complaint that all these things were making the cars almost easy to drive. TC, Active suspension, auto shifting, launch control, etc.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: F1 active suspension

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[quote="Giblet"
There was also the constant complaint that all these things were making the cars almost easy to drive. TC, Active suspension, auto shifting, launch control, etc.[/quote]

So what if they were, the drivers job is to take the car to the limit, that will never change whatever vehicle he's in.

With that sort of reasoning the drivers should ask to have stick-shift and right-foot braking back?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Giblet
Giblet
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Re: F1 active suspension

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OK, so we allow active suspension, and when every team has a perfectly flat driving car, what then? It's a gimmicky trick that costs money and helps destroy the sport more.

All that money, all that development, and everyone is back to square on at the end of the day.

It adds nothing to the spectacle, and to me, cars cornering flat don't look like they are moving as quick. I prefer to see a car pitch and weave.

And with my kind of logic, we would have gotten rid of TC, as it also took away from driver skill, added cost and complexity, all for no value to the show. Oh wait....

Take away from something that a driver needs to do like dynamically feeling the cars pitch and roll, and close the gap between the bad and good drivers, and the good drivers will have less ability to showcase and use their talent.

The cost of design, implementation, and testing all go against what the sport is currently trying to achieve right now.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: F1 active suspension

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Giblet wrote:OK, so we allow active suspension, and when every team has a perfectly flat driving car, what then? It's a gimmicky trick that costs money and helps destroy the sport more.

All that money, all that development, and everyone is back to square on at the end of the day.

It adds nothing to the spectacle, and to me, cars cornering flat don't look like they are moving as quick. I prefer to see a car pitch and weave.

And with my kind of logic, we would have gotten rid of TC, as it also took away from driver skill, added cost and complexity, all for no value to the show. Oh wait....

Take away from something that a driver needs to do like dynamically feeling the cars pitch and roll, and close the gap between the bad and good drivers, and the good drivers will have less ability to showcase and use their talent.

The cost of design, implementation, and testing all go against what the sport is currently trying to achieve right now.
by that logic we should ban every thing and go back to rental karts. No TC all are identical teams wont spend more than a few hundred a day.

Banning technology from racing is wrong. Racing is not meant to create a spec class and see who has the best setup.

Innovation and trick parts is just as much of racing as a good driver. If a designer can build a car that a hack driver can win with is that not just as impressive as an amazing driver designed by a hack engineer.

Giblet
Giblet
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Location: Canada

Re: F1 active suspension

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You seem to think I want all tech things taken off of the cars. I think KERS is awesome, even in it's low end form.

TC was banned for reasons of more potential passing, it is not a good comparison, although I did mention it. TC is cheap.

Active ride will cost each and every team money just to reach parity. Once the goal of everyone in a flat riding car is done, there is no more room for any development in that tech. Only possibility is chasing tiny gains in weight reduction, increasing the cost in a disproportionate amount to what is being gained, every year.

Eventually more teams will leave, citing rising costs, and again, the sport will suffer. not to mention cornering speeds going out of control again, and the formula needing to be stifled so more drivers don't die. So everyone gets active ride, then what, we go back to grooved tires to slow them down? 2 litre v6? Redesign each and every single track's runoffs? I don't see the viability.

What possible argument can anyone have that adding active ride in the current F1 is either affordable or will help draw fans to the EMPTY grandstands, as these are the issues currently plaguing the sport scandals aside.

One last edited thing here : With all of Bernie's cashola, why can't the old frikking idiot understand that making the races HD will guarantee more viewership. he is incredibly stupid for someone so cunning.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 active suspension

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I'm not sure active suspension would really be THAT expensive to develop, particularly after having seen the Williams setup. I think it might even be cheaper than KERS.

Mechanically in the grand scheme of things it's not that complicated. 4 hydraulic actuators, some accumulators, etc.

The control system behind it, is where its at.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.