Michael Schumacher not as adaptable as previously thought?

[Aryoh]

The amount of ignorant and uninformed comments in this forum is really unbelievable ))

How can one be earn the rain master title by being averagely talented??? Rain favors the better driver.

The guy came second on a race using fifth gear only and he is not adaptable???

How can one's most successful race tracks be the so called driver tracks (Suzuka, Spa, Imola, Monaco, etc) and yet be referred with sentences "well he was not so talented however/but..."

"He never got a good teammate." What about the Massa that Raikkonen could not beat? The Rubens that Jenson barely beat at the age of 37 partly due to a much better start to the season. Irvine that could compete with a driver of Hakkinen's caliber and make it a WDC race. If my memory serving me that year there was a race where Schumacher let Irvine pass twice in the same race to help him...He was that much better than him...

Schumacher was leading Senna in 1994 before Aryton passes away in his unfortunate accident.

Finally to judge his talent and his accomplishments but looking at how well he does at the age of 41 after 3 full year break is just plain stupid......Something like looking at Jordan's last years (at the age of 38-40) at Wizards and then saying that "he was not much talented but he practiced a lot". "He was just a good jump shooter" "It was the Phil Jackson and great Bulls team with center Luc Longley", "The competition was not that that good when he was around" .

David Coulthard practiced almost 15 years in Adrian Newey designed cars. What good did he achieve in that period?

+1
Sorry for my poor english, but i must say that you dont have good example for MS situation this year. You dont have the driver that is out for so long and then return after 3 years in the car that is so much diferent, with no testing and car that is not so good, every track diferent setup, diferent tires situation, and the car that is made for another driver.I must again to remaind on Giancarlo Fisichella last year, he just switch the cars and he look like he never drive F1 car before, yo dont tell me that Fisichella dont have expirience, and he was at the podium many times before. Again sorry for my poor english.

[segedunum]

When Michael first broke into Formula One he was blindingly quick. It was a pleasure to watch him hustle his Benetton around. But when he went to Ferrari, it became a case of the team and engineers building a car around his personal preferences. No, Michael is not adaptable. He never was, and to think he is, is allowing yourself to fall victim to fanboy hysteria.

That's the only conclusion you can draw. A lot of people are shouting "Why, why, why, how, how, how" but if he was a naturally talented driver who had a good feel for what the car was doing and what he needed to do then he would have got on top of things fairly quickly this year, even if he wasn't winning or getting podiums. Him not winning is not the point. He simply hasn't got on top of anything this year. Contrast that with his replacement at Ferrari, Raikkonen, who struggled endlessly for more than a quarter of 2007 with the standardised tyres and still became World Champion.

The simple fact is that Michael has made up for that lack of driving talent over the years, successfully, by relying heavily on his engineers to tell him exactly what the car is doing and rather than him adapting he has had things changed for him. That's where Schumacher's talent really is and arguably the attention he got at Ferrari made him a worse driver when it came to adapting. His return this year, the team as it is and the standardisation of things like the engine and especially the tyres has simply stripped away the layers of protection that he's had in the past.

[gridwalker]

David Coulthard practiced almost 15 years in Adrian Newey designed cars. What good did he achieve in that period?

He became the highest scoring British F1 driver EVER.

Not bad for someone without a championship to his name.

Coulthard has also made it clear that he isn't interested in an F1 comeback, unlike Schumi ...

Schumacher's dominance was pretty much engineered from the outset : I wish I could find a copy of the 1995 edition of Motoring News that contained an interview with Bernie Ecclestone about how he had brokered Schumacher's move to the red cars in order to start an "era of Ferrari" (which, incidentally, was fantastic for marketing purposes). It was only a few years before the FIA started making curiously pro-Ferrari decisions that spawned all manner of conspiracy theories (which were underlined by Bernie's "we bought ferrari" comments in 2008).

This is not to detract from Michael's achievements : The cards may have been stacked in his favour, but he still had to go out and capitalise on the opportunity.

Still, considering the lack of competition that Michael faced during this period, it does seem like Michael got complacent whilst he was fed championships with a silver spoon.

On the other hand, I've never liked Micheal and never will, so don't take my word for anything!

[LionKing]

"The simple fact is that Michael has made up for that lack of driving talent over the years"

Michael's lack of driving talent is a simple fact? Someone's opinion does not become a fact.

Let me ask a factual question which I mentioned before:
The guy has been named as rainmaster. Rainy races do increase the influence of drivers in the race and favor the better drivers. If what you said were indeed a fact, how do you reconcile with this actual fact (his driving in wet)? On the contrary If what you were saying were correct, it would have been the other way around. People would have told "Although he won many races, he was absolutely nowhere in wet races, blah blah..."

Again for those saying he did not have competition Aryton lost his life trying chase him down in Imola.

And also this is David's F1 career below... He is two years younger than Schumacher and did not give a long break to his F1 career. 16th , 10th, 13th, 12th in red bulls, 10th in 2004 in McLaren Mercedes. It looks like the age of 32 in 2003 was his last semi respectable result. Micheal is now 9 years older what he was then....

Formula 1
2008 Red Bull Racing, 16th, 8 points [ 37 years old ]
2007 Red Bull Racing, 10th, 14 points
2006 Red Bull Racing, 13th, 14 points
2005 Red Bull Racing, 12th, 24 points
2004 West McLaren Mercedes, 10th 24points
2003 West McLaren Mercedes, 7th, 51 points
2002 West McLaren Mercedes, 5th, 41 points
2001 West McLaren Mercedes, 2nd, 65 points
2000 West McLaren Mercedes, 3rd, 73 points
1999 West McLaren Mercedes, 4th, 48 points
1998 West McLaren Mercedes, 3rd, 56 points
1997 West McLaren Mercedes, 3rd, 36 points
1996 Marlboro McLaren Mercedes, 7th, 18 points
1995 Rothmans Williams Renault, 3rd, 49 points
1994 Rothmans Williams Renault, 8th, 14 point

As for British drivers. Don't worry you guys have Hamilton. He is the real deal to join the greats...

[747heavy]

@ Ringo

good one, I will give the point to you =D>
( damm it, should have chosen a internal hex head instead )

to lighten the mood a bit:




on a more serious note:

How important is adaptability in tems of overall performance for a driver?
You could adapt to a shitbox of a car, beat your team mate and still go nowhere in absolute results (wins/championships etc.)

I have no problem with people saying that M.S. is not as adaptable as thought.
Maybe he was never adaptable to start with, o.k. I don´t take any offence with that either, because I don´t know.

I tend to remember that there was a time when it was thought he was worth 1 sec a lap extra, and I remember a interview with some engineers at Benetton stating that they told him the car would be faster if he could drive it in a certain way. The guy claimed Schumacher went away for a while, thinking about it, came back and drove the car in that way. I don´t know if it is true or not, I was not there at the time.

I´m just curious to know/learn if you can lose a skill like adaptability, same goes for talent.
Maybe it´s possible, maybe with age, maybe because with expirience or out of complecenty you just can´t be bothered to adapt to a --- car, knowing that it will never be a winner. maybe the energy is better spend in (trying) to change the car, then to blindly adapt to a given situation and top out at a given level.
Just some radom thoughts.

I do see merrit in the "If you can drive, you can drive" statement, but would all the adaptability in the world, make a driver able to turn a HRT car into a winner (under regular conditions)

On the other hand "Time and tide waits for no one" and everything in life has it´s time and it´s place.

Nothing wrong with that either

Hope you guys have a great day

[marcush.]

hehe ..maybe we should be a bit more mellow towards the olf man on his return into F1 .
He has yet not set the world on fire correct.But more often than not it was enough to
make it into Q3 ,he provided entertaining racing and gave food for a lot of threads in this community... after USGP has fallen down the ranks dramatically only in recent weeks.

I´m pretty sure you lose talent by not nurturing it.3 years will show,considering how intense his dedication was before he left.

On a sidenote ,has Mercedes got a proper simulator? I have not heard much about Schumacher do much Simulator work..why? maybe they can´´t adjust weightdistribution in that...?

[segedunum]

Michael's lack of driving talent is a simple fact? Someone's opinion does not become a fact.

Sorry, but it is a fact that his performances this year have thrown up some extremely serious shortcomings about his driving. Ross Brawn and Norbert Haug certainly don't believe he's become any less of a driver, so.............. There's only so many ways you can cut this as to what's responsible and how he's achieved success before if this is how he really drives.

Schumacher's return has given a rather new perspective on his actual talent in the cockpit, but, that's the risk that he took when he came back. The man himself won't give a stuff about that, but nevertheless.

The guy has been named as rainmaster. Rainy races do increase the influence of drivers in the race and favor the better drivers. If what you said were indeed a fact, how do you reconcile with this actual fact (his driving in wet)?

You're wandering off into some tropical tundra region here that gets us off the topic from Schumacher's performances today and before, given that the team do not believe he's any less of a driver. Schumacher's driving in the wet this year have been equally as disastrous as his dry performances, so that wouldn't seem to add up either.

Again for those saying he did not have competition Aryton lost his life trying chase him down in Imola.

Senna competed against a Benetton that had traction control - and we know that they had it because it was found. The way that Senna chased down Schumacher at a rate of knots at Interlagos in 1994 before he pushed too far over the edge, with hindsight, does raise questions about Schumacher's pure ability behind the wheel. Senna's failing was that he couldn't accept second place.

If Schumacher didn't have much competition after Senna, well, that's not his fault.

[747heavy]

I read somewhere that M.S. does not like the simulator, and suffering from motion sickness in it. I know, it sound´s funny, but I can see that being possible.

Not sure if it is true !!!

But it is a good example of times change.
I will fully agree, that part of his dominance was the fact that Ferrari had two test tracks at their disposal, and the budget in place to make full use of them.
That goes along the talent needs to be nutured/developed line of thought, and I agree with that.

Now, with no track testing, maybe a less adequate simulator things shift, and your former advantage is eliminated and/or turned into a disadvantage.

Sure simulator/simulation technology has become the new stage for the next arms race.
As have been test tracks/teams, windtunnels and electronics (TC,ABS etc) in the past.
new winners and loser can emerge in this situation

[RacingManiac]

Talent is nothing without applying oneself to the task at hand IMO. You don't need a more obvious example than Raikkonen, someone who is in no doubt talented but by all account his work habit leaves something to be desired. In this current era of cost cutting and limited testing/R&D, talent may have ended up accounting for more than it used to, especially if your equipment was not there to start with, but it still won't be the only thing that makes you win...

In MS's case, him being the guy who was willing to work and work to find his advantage and solutions to his problem, not having that option obviously hurts. Plus the gap of 3 years out of the top level, out of touch with up-to-date tires and technology, coupled with the shift in design philosophy to the current car that seemingly clashes with his driving style, probably all contributed to his lack of result...this is not even accounting for his probably dulled edge being a man in his 40s....

IMO its entirely possible that MS is not as talented as Senna, or Raikkonen, or the people from the current era like Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel. He might have "made up" to his "lack of talent" with his work ethic, but at the end of the day, whatever helps you collects the trophy and wins championship is the attribute that counts. In "his time", he can do that and he made full use of that.

[andrew]

Yet another driverbashing non-technical thread? I thought these were getting stopped.

Simple fact is, the more successful someone is, the easier it is for their critics to bash them when things are not going well.

The facts as to why he has not had the performances it plain for all to see. The car is a dog and the guy hasn't raced for 3 years. Anyone who expected anything more than a mid-field performance was and is deluded.

It'll be interesting to see who many of the bashers will eat humble pie if things do start to go well. Better start cooking them now, 'cos I'm gonna need a hell of a lt!

[747heavy]

very good post =D>
RaceManiac

[LionKing]

This is from wikipedia "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_Formula":

Main article: Allegations of cheating in the 1994 Formula One season
The Benetton B194-Ford

During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious".[1]

[marcush.]

I remember one interview with Senna in a post race press conference,after completely destroying his teammate prost and lapping the hole field ,when some journo asked him if it were possible that it was his passion to develop the car was the deciding factor in his success and if he thought it was possibble that he was not the best driverout there on pure driving talent.
Senna paused a very long time giving the idea a long and thorough thought(a trademark of him )and answered:Yes it is entirely possible that some guy might have more talent but he would be even more proud of his achievements if these where based on his passion and dedication to his profession...

[747heavy]

Marcus,
this should also qualify for the "best racing quotes" section IMO

[segedunum]

Yet another driverbashing non-technical thread? I thought these were getting stopped.

Schumacher's performances have brought it about and brought about the questions. It's that simple.

It'll be interesting to see who many of the bashers will eat humble pie if things do start to go well.

Even if things start to go a bit better next year it won't explain away his total lack of any improvement this year.