Clutch Kiss point

[lolzi]

Who needs a driver anyway.
So why not use the 'American' way and just have a rolling start, kids stuff.
Logical realy, they already use it after the pace car.
Eventualy it will become fully sanitized I suppose.

What is it exactly that you want instead? You seem to have some kind of vendetta against the way the clutch works in F1, how would you have it?

[autogyro]

I would do it one of two ways.
Either a proper conventional clutch operated by either hand or foot, or allow technology to develop in the most effective direction, which would result in automatic inertia achieving systems for launch.
If it were a conventional clutch it would prevent developments made solely for F1 clutches just to overcome the fabricated problem of low flywheel weight and ic engines with no torque at low revs.
The second automatic syatem would be the logical one and would already be in use in F1 and road cars if it had not been prevented by artificial regulation.

IMO these artificial regulations are the only thing that prevents F1 from being totaly emaciated as a skilled sport.
Unfortunately they conflict absolutely with the need for F1 to allow technical development of use in the real world.

It is the reason that Colin Chapman became disillusioned with F1 after the Lotus 88 was banned all those years ago.

[bettonracing]

The 'automatic' clutch engagement system is not built into the actuation system. It is incorporated into the clutch pressure plate/ basket and allows controlled (read: adjustable) rate of engagement with axial deflection upon initial engagment. A 2nd spring ("launch spring") is currently used to facilitate 'quick' change for adjusting rate of engagement.

...

Just because the operating mechanism is inside the clutch basket, does not stop it from being automatic in operation.

Yay Captain Obvious. Please read the first two lines of my previous post.

The point of the previous post (which You clearly missed) is that Your ranting and raving about going back to a "conventional clutch" is futile. With Your knowledge as a transmission engineer, I would expect You to realize that the days of unpredictably-sudden clutch rate of engagement (ROE) are gone. There are some that don't manipulate the ROE (e.g. street cars), but rest assured, any real clutch manufacturer can provide the data, and manipulate the ROE to some degree - if You're willing to pay for it.

Simply put, the "conventional clutch" (aka non-adjustable ROE clutch) is dead. Kaput. Finito. Kicked the bucket. Light a candle, get the hymnal.

All that said and done, even with these "automatic clutches", there are drivers, teams and electronic gremlins who still botch the launch. What are You complaining about again? You want it to happen more often?

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

[autogyro]

Exactly the opposite.
The technology available today can completely eliminate the use of any clutch in the power train, dry, wet, mechanical, hydraulic, CVT/TVT Van Doorne or toroloidal links or even electronic.

The so called 'clever' ways of automaticaly operating a dry plate clutch are as obsolete as the steam engine in the real world. They are being used just to paper over and conceal the need for what is in effect a set of control formula regulations, in much the same way as aerodynamic regulations blind everyone to everything else.

[bettonracing]

Exactly the opposite.
The technology available today can completely eliminate the use of any clutch in the power train, dry, wet, mechanical, hydraulic, CVT/TVT Van Doorne or toroloidal links or even electronic.

The so called 'clever' ways of automaticaly operating a dry plate clutch are as obsolete as the steam engine in the real world. They are being used just to paper over and conceal the need for what is in effect a set of control formula regulations, in much the same way as aerodynamic regulations blind everyone to everything else.

Now that You've gotten Your shameless plug may we return to the topic/ debate at hand here: Dry clutch kiss point. Political agendas regarding alternative couplings or transmissions can be discussed in another thread.

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

P.S. For the record, I actually agree that there are more suitable clutch alternatives, but that's not what we're discussing here.

[autogyro]

I agree Kurt.
So you agree that the adjustable system in the clutch basket is automatic in operation?

[bettonracing]

"Automatic" is such a loaded word...

The ROE is mostly controlled by the engineers/ clutch design, so it's not farfetched to assume that drivers can just dump the clutch and let it work itself out.

However, some ROE control must still left up to the driver. Under ideal conditions, the driver can dump the clutch. Qualify on the dirty side, dusty grid, unexpected rain, etc, and the ROE now has to be adjusted either just before, or during the launch. Since there's parc feme, this adjustment has to be performed by the driver.

So technically, in perfect conditions (or more specifically, the conditions predicted by the clutch engineer), the clutch is "automatic". In varied conditions (from this ideal), it is not.

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

[autogyro]

Most of the clutch 'operation' is in the hands of the engineers then?

[Richard]

Autogyro, the end result is that stalls or poor launches are common place, even among the top drivers on the same team with the same equipment. One can only conclude that the equipment still requires significant human control.

[bettonracing]

Most of the clutch 'operation' is in the hands of the engineers then?

The operation of every single component on an F1 car is mostly in the hands of the engineers. Your logic therefore implies that an entire F1 car is "automatic".

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

[autogyro]

Most of the clutch 'operation' is in the hands of the engineers then?

The operation of every single component on an F1 car is mostly in the hands of the engineers. Your logic therefore implies that an entire F1 car is "automatic".

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

Not via telemetry it is not Kurt

[010010011010]

Are you suggesting that clutchs are adjusted using telemerty in real time?

[ahmedvortex]

no way for any component to be adjusted by the pits , the Fia allow only 1-way telemetry , engineers can see everything but they ask the driver to act if needed .

[autogyro]

Data from the clutch operation is sent via telemetry. The engineers 'crunch' this data and the driver is informed by radio the clutch settings to use.
This is done with other systems within the regulations but I have been unable to find a loophole in the regs to allow this for the clutch.
IMO this allows the driver to select a point on the clutch operating movement and is against the regulations.

[flynfrog]

Data from the clutch operation is sent via telemetry. The engineers 'crunch' this data and the driver is informed by radio the clutch settings to use.
This is done with other systems within the regulations but I have been unable to find a loophole in the regs to allow this for the clutch.
IMO this allows the driver to select a point on the clutch operating movement and is against the regulations.

Maybe you should write a strongly worded letter to the FIA with all of the brilliant points you have posted in this thread. Make sure to tell them how you invented Ferrari's seamless shift transmission and you were good friends with Colin Chapman.