Clutch Kiss point

[raymondu999]

If the grid was forced to use manual clutch engagement using a conventional clutch operating system there would be the following result.
One third of the cars would stall the engines.

That's why they have anti-stall systems. Recall Vettel's pit stop at Singapore this year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Vettel did something wrong either with the clutch, or he selected 2nd gear instead of 1st. I think the car automatically selected neutral or disengaged the clutch to avoid a stall.

Also, Hammond's start in the Top Gear video shows the anti-stall system too.

The first few posts in this thread actually made me understand F1 clutches much better. The arguments made it more fuzzy.

Cheers

Errm... that's exactly what was meant. If the cars had completely manual clutch (ie the computer CANNOT step in and pull the clutch for the driver) the car will stall.

[omar2726]

Errm... that's exactly what was meant. If the cars had completely manual clutch (ie the computer CANNOT step in and pull the clutch for the driver) the car will stall.

Okay, I stand corrected. Reading through the article I have posted in my previous post, one can safely assume that the clutch is indeed electronic controlled, not the same as a conventional clutch.

As you pull out of the garage into the pitlane, the electronics engineer is having a look at the behaviour of the clutch and by the time we go to the end of the pitlane, there’s a call on the radio saying ‘clutch position X, engine position X’ for the practice start. The electronics guys choose the clutch position based on the amount of clutch slip, grip level, temperature and clutch wear. Obviously we don’t use the clutch paddle apart from pulling away so the only other time we may have to adjust this is before the pit stop. The tricky bit is to remember to go back to the baseline positions after the practice start.

Maybe they can map the clutch controls in such a way that a certain range in the movement of the clutch paddle activates the optimal clutch position, based on the parameters the engineers have monitored. For example anywhere between the 30% and 70% position of the paddle, is the optimal position. Just like the graph in a previous post in this thread. So the first paddle is fully depressed to disengage the clutch fully, while the second paddle is held in the middle position, so when the first paddle is released, the clutch is left at the optimal position stated above.

Hope this makes sense.

[autogyro]

Automatic clutch then. I thought that was against the regulations?

[omar2726]

I guess the regulations view it as a semi-automatic system, wherein the driver still controls it via drive-by-wire. The electronics guys just program it to respond to a certain input (i.e. stay in the optimal position at a certain range of the clutch paddle). If I'm not mistaken the gas pedal is also operated in the same matter, right? Same with the gearshift paddles, which is more like a switch that tells the gearbox to shift.

IMHO, an automatic system is one wherein the computer "blends" the clutch during a start without driver intervention.

Cheers

[autogyro]

Interesting group of definitions.
Automatic, semi-atomatic, manual.

From what I have read on the subject, the one in the middle can be defined as either of the other two depending on who writes the spec.

Convenient?

[flynfrog]

Interesting group of definitions.
Automatic, semi-atomatic, manual.

From what I have read on the subject, the one in the middle can be defined as either of the other two depending on who writes the spec.

Convenient?

the clutch is activated by the movement of the drivers hand for launch. I don't see how you get semiautomatic out of all of this. It does have an antistall that wont let the revs drop to low that completely disengages the clutch has nothing to do with getting the power to ground. I ask once again what is your point you seem to be changing your argument trying to lure other posters into arguing with you. The launch is activated by the moment of the drivers hand therefore it is a manual system even if it is an electronic connection. Yes they change change the scalars on the response. They can do this with the throttle too. does that mean they have traction control? maybe they have semi automatic throttles too

[autogyro]

Perhaps, depends who it is describing the system.

[omar2726]

autogyro, are you trying to prove that their clutch systems are automated? What kind of clutch mechanism do you think they are using? Do you think what I, and the other posters have mentioned above are not correct? So that we are all clear with each other once and for all, can you describe the way you understand, or know, how the F1 clutch works?

[autogyro]

Telemetry decides the ideal biting point for the clutch, taking all things including wear into account.
The driver is told the programmed map for holding this mechanism position and sets it.
One flap lever released sets this point, controlled by electronics.
The second lever then fully engages the clutch.
IMO fully automatic operation.
Call it what you like but please give an explanation why.

If anyone believes this is a manual system, then they cannot have driven many stick shift cars with manual clutches.

[flynfrog]

how is any of that automatic?

They can change fuel injection maps too does that mean they have an automatic throttle?

Let say I have two clutch pedals in my car and a knob to adjust the engagement point does that mean they are automatic? There is nothing they are doing with electronics that you couldn't do with a full mechanical system.

[747heavy]

If anyone believes this is a manual system, then they cannot have driven many stick shift cars with manual clutches.

How many stick shift cars have a "manual" clutch autogyro?
Are you confusing "manual" with "mechanical"?

A F1 clutch is very "manual" by the correct definition of the word.

manual adjective

done with the hands

[omar2726]

automatic:
–adjective
1.having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently: an automatic sprinkler system; an automatic car wash.

Aside from the anti-stall system, I can not think of any way how the clutch can be called an automatic. It's response to driver's input is variable and can be adjusted in real time, but the driver still tells the clutch when to engage or disengage.

Automatic and full manual are not the only kinds of systems out there. The clutch may be electronically controlled, but there is still a switch that is controlled by the driver.

The regulations prohibit the teams from using an automatic clutch, but it does not require them to use a fully manual and mechanical clutch.

Your computer keyboard is electronically controlled too, and it types in "e" when you press the "e" button. It does not type "e" when it thinks the letter "e" should be typed in. Same with the clutch, it disengages the clutch to a certain position when you tell it too, but you still have to tell it to. It does not blend the clutch during starts out of its own accord.

[autogyro]

Sorry 747 Heavy, it seems that over 40 years of working on, designing and racing cars with manual clutches and gearboxes was all wrong in your mind.
You are simply wrong.

A manual clutch is one which is manualy operated old son always has been and always will be.
From the 1908 Panhard we are rebuilding to the latest 'manual' car on the road.
A manual gearbox has the same 'manual' operation. I simply called it stick shift for the Americans on here who have less experience of the type.

Manual is NOT the same as 'mechanical'.
Manual clutches can be mechanical, hydro/mechanical, electro/mechanical or even electo/magnetic.
So can 'automatic' clutches, it is the semi-automatic clutch that defeats proper definition.
IMO F1 clutches are not 'manualy operated'.

[autogyro]

automatic:
–adjective
1.having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently: an automatic sprinkler system; an automatic car wash.

Aside from the anti-stall system, I can not think of any way how the clutch can be called an automatic. It's response to driver's input is variable and can be adjusted in real time, but the driver still tells the clutch when to engage or disengage.

Automatic and full manual are not the only kinds of systems out there. The clutch may be electronically controlled, but there is still a switch that is controlled by the driver.

The regulations prohibit the teams from using an automatic clutch, but it does not require them to use a fully manual and mechanical clutch.

Your computer keyboard is electronically controlled too, and it types in "e" when you press the "e" button. It does not type "e" when it thinks the letter "e" should be typed in. Same with the clutch, it disengages the clutch to a certain position when you tell it too, but you still have to tell it to. It does not blend the clutch during starts out of its own accord.

The driver also tells the gearbox and clutches when to engage in a fully automatic gearbox. That does not make the clutches or the gearbox a manual.

[omar2726]

The driver also tells the gearbox and clutches when to engage in a fully automatic gearbox. That does not make the clutches or the gearbox a manual.

Once you put it into Drive, an automatic gearbox automatically shifts the gears. The driver does not tell it when to shift.

In an automatic clutch, in a DCT car for example. If you engage 1st gear while in a standstill, nothing would happen, because the clutch would stay disengaged. But when you step on the gas, the car automatically mixes the clutch so that you would smoothly accelerate. In an F1 car, you can press the clutch paddle, engage 1st gear, but as long as you do not release the clutch paddle, you can step on the gas all day without moving the car.