Clutch Kiss point

[747heavy]

well it´s your language, so I´m sure you are on top of it.
I see nothing wrong with a "manual" transmission, as you shift normally with your hands, at least in the cars I have driven.
But calling a ,normally, foot operated clutch a "manual" is stretching it a bit - IMHO.
So the operation of a clutch (pedal) by hand in an F1 car can be quite rightly called - "manual" - at least in my understanding of your language.


And just for the record, I´m not your son - old or young.

and as you have given ample explainations of the term manual clutch (rigth or wrong),

Manual clutches can be mechanical, hydro/mechanical, electro/mechanical or even electo/magnetic.

it seems to cover almost all aspects of the operation of a F1 clutch.

Have a nice day autogyro, and enjoy your vendetta against current F1 technology, aerodynamics and the ICE.
I will leave you to it. Enjoy

[autogyro]

[...]

[autogyro]

When you place the gearlever of an automatic gearbox in any of the 'Drive' positions, the direct engagement clutch engages. When you take it out of Drive the direct engagement clutch disengages.
It is 'exactly the same!
The torque converter controls the transfer of torque from the engine to the drive wheels, just as the pre-programmed clutch slip position, pre set by the driver controls this torque transfer in an F1 car. Exactly the same 'automaticaly controlled' result.

[omar2726]

Everyone's said his piece, and I don't think this is going anywhere anymore. Although I learned interesting things in this thread, especially in the first parts.

Cheers

[Richard]

When you place the gearlever of an automatic gearbox in any of the 'Drive' positions, the direct engagement clutch engages. When you take it out of Drive the direct engagement clutch disengages.
It is 'exactly the same!
The torque converter controls the transfer of torque from the engine to the drive wheels, just as the pre-programmed clutch slip position, pre set by the driver controls this torque transfer in an F1 car. Exactly the same 'automaticaly controlled' result.

Aha - I see what you are getting at now. While the clutch control is manual* the pre-programmed mapping of the paddle renders is it as little different from a torque converter.

However, I though the rules prohibited a paddle map working like that? Don't the paddles have to be programmed to in a smooth range from 0% to 100%? So the driver still needs to feather the paddle with the biting point.

*manual = literally manual in this case because the root of the word is based on the French "man" meaning "hand"

[omar2726]

However, I though the rules prohibited a paddle map working like that? Don't the paddles have to be programmed to in a smooth range from 0% to 100%? So the driver still needs to feather the paddle with the biting point.

That's how I understand it too, but based on what Karun Chandhok have said, I think they can program the clutch response differently.

[autogyro]

If the paddle that is operated second has a range of engagement operation from one end of its travel at zero (just off biteing point) to the other end (fully engaged), does that answer your question?
First paddle sets the position of the seconds 'full' travel.
Automatic IMO.

[Richard]

If .....

If that was the case then I'd agree. However that is prohibited:

9.2.1 If multiple clutch operating devices are used, they must all have the same mechanical travel characteristics and be mapped identically.

9.2.2 Designs which allow specific points along the travel range of the clutch operating device to be identified by the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.

9.2.3 The minimum and maximum travel positions of the clutch operating device must correspond to the clutch fully engaged normal rest position and fully disengaged (incapable of transmitting any useable torque) positions respectively.

[autogyro]

One would think so but it seems to depend on who reads the regulations.
They are far to wooley.

[ak07]

From what I understand each team uses an RPM that is consistent race to race, its not varied and is made easier to hold with a throttle shaping map that is for the start, making the cars throttle position that is required to hold that RPM more broad.

They do practice starts during the weekend to get the data to find the bite point.

Whether its clutch pressure, a pot. sensor or whatever, a percentage is decided upon. It is displayed on the wheel, along side the RPM. The driver holds the throttle in the correct position, one paddle fully engaged and one at the % the engineers decided upon. From what I understand, the rate of throttle application and clutch release is still up to the driver.

It's not semi-automatic or automatic. Its a manually operated clutch.

By the definition used to define this system as semi-automatic or automatic, powersteering is semi-automatic. The same with brakes. Even my clutch in my Volkswagen.

If I had a display for clutch percentage split my clutch master into two masters, added another pedal....then my street car could have a similar system. It doesn't make it any more automatic.

[autogyro]

The F1 clutches are operated by a pre-set electronic system and a pr-set linkage.
It is manualy activated just like pushing a button to make something work.
It is automaticaly operated.

[bettonracing]

The 'automatic' clutch engagement system is not built into the actuation system. It is incorporated into the clutch pressure plate/ basket and allows controlled (read: adjustable) rate of engagement with axial deflection upon initial engagment. A 2nd spring ("launch spring") is currently used to facilitate 'quick' change for adjusting rate of engagement.

Long story short, You can go back to a physical clutch pedal, but You'll be wasting Your time. It would be extremely difficult to regulate the teams from developing some form of controlled engagement.

I personally would rather see cars dueling at speed than to see the safety hazard of stalled cars on the grid.

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

[autogyro]

Who needs a driver anyway.
So why not use the 'American' way and just have a rolling start, kids stuff.
Logical realy, they already use it after the pace car.
Eventualy it will become fully sanitized I suppose.

[autogyro]

The 'automatic' clutch engagement system is not built into the actuation system. It is incorporated into the clutch pressure plate/ basket and allows controlled (read: adjustable) rate of engagement with axial deflection upon initial engagment. A 2nd spring ("launch spring") is currently used to facilitate 'quick' change for adjusting rate of engagement.

Long story short, You can go back to a physical clutch pedal, but You'll be wasting Your time. It would be extremely difficult to regulate the teams from developing some form of controlled engagement.

I personally would rather see cars dueling at speed than to see the safety hazard of stalled cars on the grid.

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

Just because the operating mechanism is inside the clutch basket, does not stop it from being automatic in operation.

[Richard]

The F1 clutches are operated by a pre-set electronic system and a pr-set linkage.
It is manualy activated just like pushing a button to make something work.
It is automaticaly operated.

Sorry autogyro, that may be what you fear but the rules and various driver descriptions don't back that up. The driver has to feather the clutch paddle to get the right biting point. That's why we see drivers bogged down at the start when they get it wrong.

Yes, two paddles is easier than one, but it is not an on/off push button.