New member - Bought an RA107

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marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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mep ,the thing is dry sumped already..and the pump is the lowest part we see .
with the other pictures posted it seems reasonable to assume that crankshaft height is currently around 115 mm compared to the 70 of the Honda box that leaves us with 45 mm to bridge.
A stepgeardrive would of course mean 3 gears to not reverse the drive direction.

In the light of dimensional constraints with the outer paneling of the car it seems still I would first try and fit the engine as low as sensibly possible ,considering plank height etc there is possibly a bit of potential available that was not to the designers of the RA107 due to regulations.

In my mind I would max out the lowering potential of the engine to bring it down to 70 mm crankheight above FIA reference plane.(so that could be something like a true 85mm
crankshaft height.This would require a much shallower sump shortened by around 30mm ...
so the whole oil scanvenging system would need a redesign ,pumps ,sump scrapers the whole lot..That will be a major work ..BUT could open to the one who does this work the possibilty to supply a faisible engine KIT for modern V8 F1 cars at not MEGA bucks and revive a lot of works F1 chassis.
I see this more as a business opportunity then as money down the drain.

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F1snake
7
Joined: 04 Jan 2011, 23:58
Location: Bath, UK

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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RAF

Great, thanks. That should keep me out of trouble!

bosanac1

Thanks, I have been in touch with Craig, and he has offered to help with some very good contacts.

mep,

Thanks for your input. I have been told by RB engineers its been done before, but not for me to argue, I am no engineer myself! It's going to be tricky to run the original box anyway, as we don't have any of the hydraulics or electronics required to run it.

The 3.0 ltr H1 engine is already dry sumped. I think they build every engine to spec, so I'm sure they also could accomodate my needs.

We have also looked at a Hewland as an alternative, but it will alter the weight distribution somewhat. Here's a couple of drawings I found of a similar application with the H1 and Hewland type box.

Image

Image

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F1snake
7
Joined: 04 Jan 2011, 23:58
Location: Bath, UK

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Sorry, Marcush, I hadn't seen your reply before I posted mine....

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747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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well, just to tose some more ideas around.

I think it is highly unlikely, that you can achieve the original crankshaft height, as it would requiere a engine with similar (~40 mm) stroke.

here some dimensions of the Zytek F3000 engine I had in mind, but because it is an 3l engine, it´s a tad longer then the 2.4 lt Honda.
Other then that, it´s a fairly "bullet proof" engine, and it should be able to run at a resonable cost level. (see service life)

Type Zytek KV-V8, 90°, 32 valves
Aluminium and magnesium Alloy
Capacity 2993cc (3 liter)
Bore x stroke 88 x 61.5 mm
Compression 13:1
Max. power 460 b.h.p. at 8750 rpm, limited to 9000 rpm
Max. torque 407 Nm at 7000 rpm
Min. lifetime 3200 km (2000 miles)
Dimensions (l x w x h) 545 x 660 x 440 mm
Weight 125 kg (275 lbs)
Fuel Petrochem Carless
Max. Speed Approx: 290kmh
0-100kmh 3.1 seconds

Image
Image

But even this engine wont have the crankshaft height needed.
Depending on your intentions, it is maybe worthwhile to consider, to run a complete F3000 rear end, including the Hewland gearbox.

Sure it will lack some originality, but would be a easy to run installation.
The F3000 car was close to F1 in terms of weight and overall dimensions, just lacking the power, and the sound.
Because the engine was rev limited to ~9000 rpm.
But this makes for the long service intervalls ( ~ 1 season] and ease of handling.
You would only need to worry about the engine/monocoque interface, and perhaps even arrive at the same/similar wheelbase, which goes with your bodywork fitment.
As the engine is a 90° V8, it should stay within the foot print of the Honda engine.

If you need parts for the clutch or a complete replacement call/e-mail these guys, they did the Honda clutch, and still do them for others.
But it´s not going to be cheap, and I don´t think you need such a small clutch anyway.
If there is any trouble dealing with them, feel free to PM me, I know most of them well.

AFAIK 115mm is the smallest "standard" clutch you can buy "off the shelve", while 140mm 5.5" is more common, cheaper and widely available.


A more obscure engine solutions could include this.
Image
This ex German DTM V6 engine, made by Cosworth for Opel,
runs with very unequal firing - 75 degrees, 165 degrees ! The
engine uses one coil per plug, almost essential for this level
of unequal firing, very high pressure (8 bar) low duty cycle
sequential injection producing 485bhp from 2.5 litres at 12,300rpm
with mechanical valve springs.
Weighing in at only 89kg
you can find two of these engines (one brand new) here.

as they are V6´s it may buy´s you some lengths, and they rev up to 13k, so the sound is not bad, but other then that it´s not a cheap engine to run or maintain.

But on their website and on this one, you can find similar engines and perhaps others parts, which could be useful for you.

They have one of these engines as well.
Image

The idea behind the new V6 LMP2 Honda engine was, that beeing a V6 it may comes closer to the overall length you need.
As you can see, the front adapter to the chassis is maschined and not part of the engine as such.
This LMP2 engine is designed for usew in different chassis, so they needed to come up with a system for easy fitment.
This should make adaption to your chassis fairly simple.
But the crankshaft will be higher, that´s for sure, and it´s a turbo engine.

All things considered I think your H1V8 is a sensible choice overall, but some serious engineering has to go into the gearbox, if you want to keep the original case/housing and the suspension pickup points. - IMHO

Using a complete F3000 (or AGP1 etc.) rearend would be the quickest route to a running car IMHO, and it would be good "bang for your bucks", but it´s your call at the end of the day.

Good luck mate & all the best
Last edited by 747heavy on 17 Jan 2011, 17:06, edited 4 times in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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F1snake
7
Joined: 04 Jan 2011, 23:58
Location: Bath, UK

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Thanks for your input on this, marcush. and 747heavy, you are most kind to give time and consideration to solve this. We knew all along it was not going to be a walk in the park to get the car up and running, but I am in no doubt that we will get there in the end. Particularly with such support from this fabulous forum. We might well have to do radical things to make it work, and will likely cost more than the car itself did. It is also going to take some time. But, at the end of all that, hopefully we will have something rather special and very fast to scare ourselves with!

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
1
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Hello. What a great purchase and at 37k- what a bargain. Its very rare that a modern chassic comes available for sale (that I have seen) and the most recent one I seen was a Super Aguri on eBay. It was alot more than £37k!

I have 1 question, on your original post you mentioned the car did not come with the steering wheel but in the pictures it shows the steering wheel present. Is this something you added yourself or did they pinch it after they loaded it onto your lorry?

J

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ringo
227
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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That Honda F1 gearbox, what is the maximum torque it is designed take?
That should limit your options if you decide to use it.
For Sure!!

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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I really like like the idea ..so it´s fun really.

thinking about the potential crankshaft height of the H1 :

63mm stroke /2 31.5mm
41mmHyabusa bigend diameter/2 20.5mm
12mm allowance for rodcap/bolts 12.0mm
5mm allowance to sump bottom 5.0mm
3mm sump thickness 3.0mm

thats around 73mm of crankheight potential ,not considering the crankthrows radius ...but this could be nursed by cutting and placing densimet to rebalance...

...so all can be made to fit If you allow the engine to occupy some space of the floor/plank /which is more than 20mm
in thickness ...leading me to the conclusion that you could get away with something like 90mm crankshaft height .

to fit the 5.5" clutch in the gearbox ..will of course not be easy as it will at the very least need a cutout at the bottom of the casing ....smaller clutch anyone?

bettonracing
bettonracing
1
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 15:57

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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The more I see alternative engines posted, the more convinced I am that the H1V8 is the right engine for the job... The custom nature, and relatively low ongoing costs of it seem to make up for its few shortcomings - in this application.

Transmission: You may consider calling Weismann Transmissions in California. Although shipping could get costly, they have ALOT of experience with custom applications for motorsports transmissions. Chris Rado's 1000hp AWD Scion comes to mind.

Their prices aren't anything spectacular (about what one would expect for a true motorsports transmission) but considering for that price, You could effectively have a bolt-in solution (No suspension design!). They're considered to be one of the state-side transmission experts when big power and custom applications get combined. In F1Snake's case, that "big power" may translate to reliability.

Note: Their 1980's website does NOT reflect the true quality & up-to-date technology involved in their work. :)

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

010010011010
010010011010
0
Joined: 22 Aug 2009, 02:41

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Congratulations on a brilliant find and buy! Living the dream... (no pun intended)

Regarding an engine, what about a Powertec V8

Pretty much the same as the H1V8 you were looking at (dont know which one came first)

Its slightly more powerful 450bhp, can go up to 500bhp with a supercharger. Its being used in the Radical SR8LM and the Caterham Levante. And has 30 Hours between rebuilds. Thery're English too which could cut down on shipping and make develepoment easier if you need it custom made to fit in.

http://www.powertecracing.com/

Alternatively back in 2008 when I was in the Fearrai store they had a 3liter V10 on display for sale for €45,000... Just saying :)

Best of luck with it

Formula None
Formula None
1
Joined: 17 Nov 2010, 05:23

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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An electric motor with some gearing for the offset is sounding more and more attractive, no? :)

Whatever you do, I really hope you use the original gearbox. Its such a neat piece of kit, would be a waste to just use it as an, admittedly awesome, coffee table.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Image

the powertec Macroblock has a 72bank angle and seems to have a quite high crankcentreline as well..

http://www.radicalperformanceengines.co ... 5d2106.pdf

they also supply a complete set of CAD data for the engine..

bettonracing
bettonracing
1
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 15:57

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the only thing the Powertec has over the Hartley is factory location. In this case the savings in shipping don't add up to the difference in engine purchase price.

Power is ~ the same (ignore the marketing literature...)

However, off the top of my head the Hartley is/ has:
  • 61mm shorter length-wise (proprietary cam drive & head arrangement)
    Cheaper to buy, and maintain (and therefore cheaper to replace!)
    Customizable (CNC billet) block - Can accomodate 'stressed frame'.
    More factory support
Am I missing something here? I only have one "data point" for the Powertec & two for the Hartley so does anybody here have more info/ experience with either engine?

Regards,

Kurt

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C137266/

Rebuilt Judd CV 3.5 litre F1 engine For Sale

Image
Very late engine (number CV061 of 63). Originally a test engine for Lotus; more recently used with much success in speed events.

Currently installed in a Lola F3000, and can therefore be heard running. Offered for sale as a complete working package, with Motec M8 (with traction control if required), manifolds, etc.

Only 80 miles use since major rebuild at Connaught, complete with dyno sheet from Connaught showing 586 bhp at 9750 rpm. Always preheated and properly maintained.

Offered for sale on behalf of a customer. For further details please call Cheshire Classics on 01270 886134/07802 779301 or email clairemilnes76@sky.com

Price: £25000 Or near offer
Advert Type: For Sale
Category: FIA Race Cars
Make: Judd
Country: UK
Region: Cheshire
Telephone: 01270 886134
Status: Trade
E-mail: Contact Advertiser via Email
Listing Date: 16-Nov-2010

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: New member - Bought an RA107

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When the engine already is dry sumped then I wonder why they made that Oil pump so exposed below the engine. Sure it has to be on lowest point but it looks like it takes away the advantages of dry sump which is low CoG and a low shaft.
Seems like marcush has some idea how to get the engine into the car. Cutting out the floor is a good start but I didn't really get how you want to find the rest of needed space. Even so the engine is still to long. When you don't get the shaft lower you will need that additional gear set which will take lots of space lengthwise. I start to think that its very hard to find a perfect engine when you don't get the Honda one or a copy of it. Also you need a clutch, the original one is very small and I don't know if it will last very long. You might need a other one which is probably much bigger.

So you might have to think about your gearbox again.
Maybe you should make an own gearbox housing which gives you a higher shaft, can take the bigger clutch and can be bolted directly to your engine or frame. Some of the internal parts you can keep and you should measure out the suspension pick up points and keep them on your new box. When you have to make a gearset anyway because your shafts don't fit you can thing about it.
Previously you said you want to rise the shaft in the existing box and I told you that’s not working. However it is possible to build a new housing which fits better to your problem. Of course it can't be build of carbon again so you have to switch to aluminum. By this you have more freedom with your engine choice and might even get back the few mm the new engine is longer but better check this first. The F1 gearbox is probably very well designed and can’t be made any shorter.