Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road tires?

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Richard
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:People arent stupid.
....

The correlation between production and F1 tyre is near non existant. Chalk and cheese...
You mean the Lada I've ordered won't perform as well as the Renault-Lotus-Lada aka Tolman car driven by Kubica?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Perhaps I'd better take the can of RedBull back to the shop too. I thought it'd give me wings and make me a world class driver. Oh well...
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Agenda_Is_Incorrect
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Well Ciro, my IP is available to anyone. You can check it if you want or ask the moderators to do so. I only have this account here.

Your example of the tread is true, but you are ignoring that they were comparing two identical brands and models. Well, by the amount of bold text you're using and the amount of irony about good brands and good tires you are using (and also knowing your posting style), I can say you are either trying to play Mr. Funny Guy that thinks everyone else is a sucker for spending on such an inexisting thing as "safety and quality differences" or you want to somehow convince yourself and others those things aren't real. Or both of them.

It surprises me as someone that races and seems to have a deeper knowledge in car physics than the average guy who couldn't differentiate between a set of tarmac tires and a set of mud tires is trying to put tires as all the same or something that a set "macho arms" can always get around. Well, it doesn't surprise me that much after all. It's actually quite a common attitude.

Saying a set of widely common Pirellis is Louis Vitton and excellent is also laughable. You know very well the tires I was referring are their simplest and cheapest ones, not even close to the PZeros that are the top of the range. Stop playing the poor Latin American guy, no one will believe you. Everybody knows how expensive karting is, specially around here. Putting my "gandma" on the middle of it was also uncalled for, specially considering an ex-moderator. Together with your bragging about of your amazing driving skills that can transform chinese tires into PZeros I feel like I'm on a teenager motion picture like Fast and Furious! Wow, teach me how to beat the 1000 hp Supra with your 30 hp Yugo again!

Obviously comparing two equal tires will give the advantage in the rain to the newer one. Obviously an average new tire will be better when new in the rain then a completely worn better tire. Obviously there's no law that says that when you have a better tire you need to use it treadless, you just replace it like every other tire (Holy s***! Tell WikiLeaks about that!).

Obviously the guy at your back may not be able to stop, but then again you might have saved that pedestrian and the guy who crashed at your back is the one legally responsible for anything that might happen because he didn't manage to brake. And obviously you can't make up for a tireless, breakless Yugo just with your inhuman abilities. Not the best driver in the world would simply because they can't make brakes or tires grow.

The also pretty obvious point is that if you can manage to escape an accident overcoming a lack of good brakes or tires then you could do it even better and in even more situations with a better equipment. That's why a better tire is of so much importance, it will allow you to further escape by braking or turning. It might even be able to brake you fast enough to do a safe evasive move so that the Yugo in your back can have time to brake as well, instead of just throwing the car on the opposite sense lane at any time and then creating a much larger accident and ending up blamed for it.

No, the officer won't believe you when you say you have super abilities and can use the opposite lane because of it. The you're not alone phrase could be perfectly aimed at you in that situation.

Anyway, I think that's enough of stating of the obvious and going off-topic. Let's stop before you make another joke about my car or my driving abilities or my stupidity by spending more than the generic chinese brand tires would because the difference is not real and a set of "macho" arms can make them into F1 slicks. All of that wrapped in a fake package of irony and innocence to say that you are kidding at the end and that all the bragging is just to make fun (though I doubt you would accept anyone's else bragging, specially if from outside Latin America). Then you will do 300 situational and wording jokes to cover up and might start talking about communism and other stuff as good as your reasoning about safety, tires and brakes when it all goes down. We would engage endless and pointless discussion until the topic would be locked.

So, now that I have anticipated all that, better stop. In any way the conversation goes there's a physical impossibility to prove a better tire in equal conditions is not better.
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:The correlation between production and F1 tyre is near non existant. Chalk and cheese...

Pirelli are on safe ground if people are told why the tyres are going off. Its an FIA mandate at the end of the day.
That sums up the original subject quite well. The average viewer may actually like the brand if it's giving better races, and not care much about pure performance or durability.
I've been censored by a moderation team that rather see people dying and being shot at terrorist attacks than allowing people to speak the truth. That's racist apparently.

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Richard
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Agenda_Is_Incorrect wrote:The average viewer may actually like the brand if it's giving better races, and not care much about pure performance or durability.
Canada 2010 is a prime example. The tyre geeks thought it was s a terrible race,the fans thought "wow this is great"

xpensive
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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The point here, irony aside for a little while, is that every company who put their brand-names on an F1 car considers the general public stupid indeed. The thinking is that we would base our drinking habits, choice of mobile-operator, insurance company or actually tyre selection, on what is written on our favourite driver's car.

But we would never fall for such cheap tricks, would we Ciro?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Agenda_Is_Incorrect
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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richard_leeds wrote:
Agenda_Is_Incorrect wrote:The average viewer may actually like the brand if it's giving better races, and not care much about pure performance or durability.
Canada 2010 is a prime example. The tyre geeks thought it was s a terrible race,the fans thought "wow this is great"
True. And even we, hardcore technical minded fans, ended up liking it. If only Pirelli manages to bring both a proper high performance tire and one that demands more action in the form of speed or strategy that would be great. At the moment it seems like the second point is being done, but let's see what they can develop into.

xpensive, there's a bunch of theories and thinking you can have behind that kind of marketing. Could be the subject for a whole other topic so big the possibilities and doubts are. For instance, I believe some of them don't think people are stupid, they are just choosing the best way to target an audience that might be precisely the audience their products were made to. Without advertising, some of those products could be unknown for this audience. If the product is worth it's F1 performance relation that's another issue. It might be or it might not be, and in the last case it may be an attempt to fool buyers or not.

Another strategy could be to simply consolidate a brand. You know it, you use it, you know it's a good product and they use this recognition to make the exposition in F1 more like an affirmation of that recognition. I mean, at least from where I'm sitting Mobil is recognized as the best oil available for instance. And how nice it is to see it on Sunday mornings on the fastest cars on planet? They can't be doing a bad job there also, because the Merc engine uses it and it's the engine most teams would like to have.

Maybe it's not much different than having sympathy for a driver or a team from that perspective. Imagine Red Bull. How much affirmation, recognition and sympathy they are getting by being on a sport that probably attracts most of its consumers? And if you are a fan, maybe you'll also like to think a part of the money when you open a can of it goes to this team or your favourite driver in this team.

There could be all kinds of objectives and tricks into this and both extremes could happen. The idea could be fool you or simply advertise the best way a product that is the best. On the later, what best place to advertise excellence than in F1 or Le Mans?
I've been censored by a moderation team that rather see people dying and being shot at terrorist attacks than allowing people to speak the truth. That's racist apparently.

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Jersey Tom
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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747heavy wrote:and finally just a statistic for the interested:
you read from it what you like, I guess JT still likes this statistic :wink:

Image
That is a cool graphic!
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strad
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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My Pirellis last longer than many other brands, not as long as some others..they are not supersoft racing tires. One of the things that influences me is that they handle our very wet weather very well. It takes a lot to get them to hydroplane..I'd say twice what my Michelins can handle.
You seem to not understand that as well as tread depth the compound matters a ton in stopping distance. Give me my worn Pirellis over a newer set of Coopers anyday. There are a lot more variables than tread depth.
BTW...IF you know your on worn tires that need replacing you ought to be adjusting your driving style and leaving more room anyway.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Jersey Tom
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Making blanket statements about brand X being better than brand Y is pretty silly. Of the major tire companies... each one of them is going to have some high performance dry tires... some all seasons... some "value" tires, etc etc. Targeted for different performance ranges and demographics.

Making comparisons within a certain subset (e.g. max performance summer) might be a little more fair.

...like when a ~500 hp Z06 beats a ~620 hp ZR1 around a major racetrack, because the new OE tires on the Z06 are the business. Just sayin.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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It looks like Pirelli have a plan to address poor consistency if it is confirmed.
Paul Hemberey wrote:source
If we go ahead with the idea of using FP1 [first free practice] we would give each team a couple of sets of a new proposal tyre and they can use them then. After they have used these extra sets, the teams could then revert to the normal race sets for the rest of the weekend. So far we've asked the teams if they are in favour of this plan. We had to find a solution that kept costs in check. Giving the teams extra tyres does not interrupt the teams' race simulation work - and it also means there isn't some joker card or something unknown as there would be if we replaced the normal weekend tyre sets.

We will do it when the timing works well. We won't make changes just for the sake of it – but it's more likely if we see something that we want to tweak or change. That is why Malaysia is attractive for us, because of the extreme heat. We have to have compounds that work well in temperatures ranging from 10-degrees Centigrade to 50-degrees C – so we have a lot to learn this year.
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Don.Molina
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Jersey Tom wrote:...like when a ~500 hp Z06 beats a ~620 hp ZR1 around a major racetrack, because the new OE tires on the Z06 are the business. Just sayin.

or like when the Stradale 360 was clocked faster than the 430 on TopGear, because the Stradale was on Pirelli Rosso Corsas while the 430 was on Bridgestones (I think...).


In other news, and in my humblest of opinions (been lurking the forum for some time and am in awe most of the times), most average drivers don't understand things much more basic than how their tyres are behaving/griping. When a supplier comes to the F1 it's basically to build a better brand. And of course they're bound to pick up lots of tech on their way, albeit tech that's distilled and filtered and only 5% gets on the road and our products.
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ringo
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Oh, for the love of Pete. So, now the subject is tyre quality in general and I'm nagged because I left the slide rule in the dealer door... :)

If you're so worried about ABS and the such, Mr. Engineering Prudence Impersonated (most of the posts here have been written by him, using sock puppets, I know him well), then tell me what's worst: to have a "Super Pirelli Louis Vouitton Cat Grip Terminator Nikihura Road III" in your car with half an inch of thread or a "Cheapo-China-Brand-With-60000-km-Guarantee-Sold-By-A-Good-Nice-Dealer-You-Have-Known-For-Ages-So-He-Will-Have-To-Stand-Behind-The-Guarantee-So-He-Will-Do-The-Math-On-Quality-For-You" and two inches of thread.

So, for guys like me, with a limited budget and three kids, is better to change tyres faster. As grippier tyres by necessity wear faster (ehem) then, Mr. Prudence, what's your saying? It is safer for regular persons like me to buy expensive tyres that wear faster or change tyres more frequently? Now, racing tyres in regular cars are for guys that race on roads, something I prefer not to do either.

As for the racing tyres, people, in the name of Gottlieb Daimler hat... I have to confess I also DO NOT have enough money to buy the best racing tyres. I use karts for fun, the day I agonize over the brand of my tyres, that'll be the day... Besides, you have to give some advantage to rich rookies for victory to taste better.
I agree with this.

Give me any damn tyres that can last over a year on my car. :lol: I can't measure the grip a pirelli will give me vs a Dark horse or Triangle or a Goodyear. I can only measure the price tag.


If it has more tread after 8 months it will displace water better than any worn Super Pirelli Louis Vouitton Cat Grip Terminator Nikihura Road III.

want to reduce braking distance, increase your reaction time or reduce your speed. Simples.
For Sure!!

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strad
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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:roll: :roll:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Sayshina
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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G-Rock wrote:Nipo, If I were a tire manufacturer, this would be the year to avoid F1 with all the weird rule changes. KERS is back, instead of a front adjustable wing we now have a rear adjustable wing, they are being forced to make tires of different wear/durability extremes..what's next?

If I were a tire manufacturer right now I would feel like I was being used to spice up the show instead of using F1 for R an D to better improve my companies tires. This R and D would lead to an image that would reflect how well my company competes.

In the 80's, Pirelli, Goodyear, Michelin had free reign to build the best F1 tire they could build and if you had one of those tires on your road car, it meant something..but time will tell. We live in a different time with Facebook, wikipedia, drifting etc. I grew up with Senna/Prost, manual gearboxes, turbos, and hardcore quali sessions so maybe I'm out of touch with todays reality.

Richard leeds,

Maybe Porsche knows that a serious sports car company can better spend their money on a stable more purist form of racing like the ALMS (where a 911 won the WC over Ferrari/BMW btw)
I have to admit I stopped reading after this post because it was just too hysterical.

First comment: A 911 won the "WC" in the "ALMS". Can anyone spot the flaw in this logic?

Second comment: I happen to agree with you on the gimmics invading F1, not so much of themselves, KERS could be a fantastic idea, but in the way the FIA seems hellbent on manipulating them to "improve the show". They're currently talking about fake rain.

However, you mentioned Senna, Prost, and manual gearboxes. May I assume that you are one of those "racing purists" that believes that manually changing gears is a fundamental part of racecraft? Might I remind you that once upon a time so was the ride along mechanic? Care to return to the days of the friction shock? How about mechanical (as in no hydraulic) brakes? How about a supercharged straight 8 that weighed a ton and made over 120 horse? Oh, oh, and we could go back to the days when racers didn't wear seatbelts because if they crashed they hoped to be thrown clear of the inevitable fireball.


I don't mean to be any more rude than I already have, but attempts to turn back the clock are always dumb. Racing in the US is a clear example of that. It wasn't that long ago when CART had the FIA terrified, and what happened? Well by god they stuck their heads in the sand, started making a lot of silly rules designed to stifle technical progress, and then proceded to commit political and economical suicide.

Now, your perception of the Bridgestone/Michelin war leaves quite a bit to be desired. First off, the only Bridgestone team that was remotely competitive during most of that time was Ferrari. Secondly, you choose to ignore the year when tire changes were not allowed and Michelin completely dominated. Third, you ignore the fact that Bridgestone eventually changed their construction philosophy to more closely resemble Michelins. Fourth, you ignore the fact that the FIA changed the rules in the middle of the season to effectively outlaw Michelin's design and force them back to the drawing board. Fifth, you ignore the facts that have since come to light concerning the FIA's "special relationship" with Ferrari.

Finally, you make a great deal out of a single race, aparently because it took place in your home country. Michelin tried to sail a bit too close to the edge, faced conditions hotter than expected and screwed themselves. I've seen a lot of racers drive themselves off the track by making similar decisions, are you telling me you've instantly written them all off the first time they blew a corner? I seem to remember one Mr. Senna punting his Lotus off the track so often one comentator wondering what would happen if Senna had had to drive for Collin Chapman.

You are of course free to buy whatever tires for your 911 you please, but I thought I should point out that the Michelins being raced on 911's in endurance events around the world are at least 1000 times closer to your road tires than any F1 tire ever made.

Jersey Tom
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Re: Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road ti

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Sayshina wrote:I should point out that the Michelins being raced on 911's in endurance events around the world are at least 1000 times closer to your road tires than any F1 tire ever made.
What is your reasoning behind this statement?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.