Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road tires?

[Sayshina]

I should point out that the Michelins being raced on 911's in endurance events around the world are at least 1000 times closer to your road tires than any F1 tire ever made.

What is your reasoning behind this statement?

1: Many engineers have commented on the somewhat archaic and arbitrary dimensions of modern F1 tires, and when Michelin was talking to the FIA about taking over the exclusive supply last year one of their requests was that they be allowed to use a more modern construction, similar to what you see in other high performance tires (IE., much shorter sidewall, very different aspect ratio) and larger wheels.

2: High performance road tires, especially on bikes but also cars, have tended over the last 20 or so years to be very similar to what was being raced a few years prior. A good example of that are the multi compound bike tires, that a few years ago were exclusively top end racing animals, and are now considered baseline equipment.

3: A racing 911, in say GT3, will certainly have more power and less mass than it's street counterpart, but for the most part we're talking 10-15% differences. Isn't the downforce on a GT3 measured in the hundreds of pounds? It's not going to be a shocking departure, and it's going to require broadly similar characteristics from the tires. You may go slightly larger or smaller on one end to get different turnin characteristics, you may go slightly more agressive at one end to solve a problem the setup is unable to, but in most racing series you're stuck with many or all of the suspension components, the fundamental stiffness of the chassis, your aerodynamics, and often stock or mostly so engine.

If all you're allowed to do is rip out the stereo, sound proofing, and passenger seat, and all you're allowed to do to the engine is remap it, your tire requirements will follow suit.

4: Once you get off the world stage, not only are bespoke racing tires not the norm, but in many series you're required to use street legal items, often expected to last more than a single weekend.

5: 15 years ago you could make the arguement that an indycar was broadly similar to a F1 car, today there's nothing close. You can make a good arguement that the diesel endurance cars are as much or more of a challenge to develope tires for, but they don't in any way have the same characteristics.

[Jersey Tom]

Nothing arbitrary about the dimensions. Wheel size is there to limit the brakes.

Nothing archaic about it either. Still a huge portion of the world on 13-15" wheeled consumer vehicles.

But this gets back to my whole argument that there is no need for anything in racing (chassis, tires, whatever) to be relevant to consumer technology. To try and say that F1 and motorsports is a breeding ground for innovation and things that can benefit the common Joe, is a stretch at best.

Just my 2 cents.

[Just_a_fan]

Nothing arbitrary about the dimensions. Wheel size is there to limit the brakes.

I've heard this stated a number of times and it may well be the reason why we have 13in wheels. But surely brakes can just as easily be limited by a rule that says "brakes are to have dimensions of X diameter by Y thickness...

I'd bet that part of the reason is actually the fact that TPTB don't like the idea of 18in rims with "little" brakes - the sort of thing one sees when young guys put big wheels on otherwise standard cheap hatchbacks. The mismatch between wheel and brake is laughable.

[Jersey Tom]

Well sure then, they could go to bigger wheels. But what's the point?

[G-Rock]

Maybe FIA could mandate the engine manufacturers to design engines that will begin to wear out 10 laps before the end of the race forcing the driver to go into conservation mode to finish the race for a dramatic finish.

Do you really think that Mercedes or Ferrari would put their good names on an engine that it designed to prematurly wear out or expire to spice up the show??

That is essentially what is being asked of Pirelli right now. It's ridiculous!! It's artificial and precarious and I lost respect for Pirelli for going along with it.

[Belatti]

Nothing arbitrary about the dimensions. Wheel size is there to limit the brakes.

Have we discussed this topic in the past? Its bad memory or a dejavu? Please, could you be more specific with that one?

[G-Rock]

Quote taken from ESPN F1
"Pirelli has hit back at the ongoing criticism from some drivers over the severe degradation of its tyres during pre-season testing.

"The increased degradation is a feature specifically requested by the teams and the organisers to improve the show," a statement by the manufacturer said. "This is an opportunity for the sport, not a problem.

"What must be said is that we have not run with optimum conditions in the official winter testing, both in terms of temperatures too low and the track conditions. "

Hahaha, the season hasn't even started yet and they're defending themselves and finger pointing already. Bad press equals bad image I'm afraid.
They should have stuck to making the best tire they could develop or get out and let some other tire manufacturer take the bait.

[xpensive]

This is really an interesting discussion to follow, when it's just a piece of rubber we're talking about, right,
even if certain self-appointed xperts on the matter would like to involve both Avogadro and Planck into the debate.

I'm certain that GoodYear could bring their 1993 quality and have most poeople happy, though scratching their heads.

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

Give me any damn tyres that can last over a year on my car. I can't measure the grip a pirelli will give me vs a Dark horse or Triangle or a Goodyear. I can only measure the price tag.


If it has more tread after 8 months it will displace water better than any worn Super Pirelli Louis Vouitton Cat Grip Terminator Nikihura Road III.

want to reduce braking distance, increase your reaction time or reduce your speed. Simples.

If your tires are lasting just one year, maybe you are not going slow enough as you said. Or you do 5 million miles a day

But seriously, if you can't measure grip on different tires I can't see how you are able to enjoy being an F1 fan or understanding car dynamics. It's so noticeable from one extreme of the performance rate to the middle or to the other extreme it's blatant and impossible to not notice even if you don't know cars very well.

Obviously this is very hard to notice on a straight line without making hard accelerations, so if were you live there's an absence of corners and very little rain I can see your point. Even though, a good or reasonable tire will still help you in harder situations and improve your durability.

Another possibility, and I don't mean to be rude or make fun of you here, is some kind of disorder in your internal ears. That's the part responsible to sensing this kind of stuff, though a quick look at the speedometer during a corner would also pretty quickly tell the differences between two different cars or tires.

@Jersey Tom: please tell Goodyear to restudy their line up in Latin America. At the moment they are pretty weak in their offer here, with tires above the average on price and under average on grip. At the 90s almost every manufacturer would use Goodyear here, now most have moved to Bridgestones or Pirellis.

@G-Rock, let's give time to them. Maybe by the mid-season they will prove to have tires that are good for the spectacle and for the performance.

@xpensive, yes, most expectators wouldn't mind that. But at least we, as every technical fan, would mind. Either this or people here just watch F1 because it's what's available

[ringo]

If your tires are lasting just one year, maybe you are not going slow enough as you said. Or you do 5 million miles a day

Well i never had 4 tyres of the same age on the car, and then there's uneven wear. My rears are on much longer than the fronts for that reason. One year is an over exaggeration in truth.
But i can't remember not having a year without changing a tyre.

Tyre life would be dependent on the roughness of the roads as well.

But seriously, if you can't measure grip on different tires I can't see how you are able to enjoy being an F1 fan or understanding car dynamics. It's so noticeable from one extreme of the performance rate to the middle or to the other extreme it's blatant and impossible to not notice even if you don't know cars very well.

How do you measure tyre grip?
There is a difference between measuring and feeling.
I can't compare grip if don't have the luxury of buying multiple sets of tyres to compare.
When i buy tyres i don't get to test drive them. You see a set, you like the price then you buy them.
Whoever is measuring tyre grip out there, must really have money to waste to buy 3 or 5 sets to compare. Or maybe the tyre shop is kind enough to give you test runs and waste their stock.

I buy a tyre, i brake or i accelerate and then i probably say "hey these don't feel as good as the last ones" or "I'm slipping the rears a little easier when it's damp". That's it i don't care to analyze anymore because i wont be changing them until they're done.

If you are sensing limit of adhesion in the dry, that means you are driving the car to the limit. I don't do that on the street.
I've locked the rear a couple times in some sandy road ways, but that is no measure or comparison from tyre to tyre.

Obviously this is very hard to notice on a straight line without making hard accelerations, so if were you live there's an absence of corners and very little rain I can see your point. Even though, a good or reasonable tire will still help you in harder situations and improve your durability.

Trust me man, i don't live anywhere close to what you're describing.

Another possibility, and I don't mean to be rude or make fun of you here, is some kind of disorder in your internal ears. That's the part responsible to sensing this kind of stuff, though a quick look at the speedometer during a corner would also pretty quickly tell the differences between two different cars or tires.

Ha ha, if i understand you correctly, you are doing slalom tests, on the limit in your car, on the road?

If you live in a mountainous country with crazy elevation changes and tight corners you don't feel the need to look on the speedometer. No corner is that smooth or that long or that safe that you can afford to do that.

For relative grip between tyres I am capable of sensing it, but i can't measure it, i couldn't tell you the difference with numbers. I can only say which wears quicker, or which feels harder.


Doesn't change the fact that the next time i buy, I'm buying cheap!

So to get back on topic. A F1 tyre's performance doesn't change how i view their road tyres. In fact i think I would just trust and respect the brand a little more because F1 publicizes the tyre so much that it gets in your brain.
For instance bridgestone, i somewhat respect the brand just because it was the F1 tyre for quite a while. Not because of how poor or well it did in F1.

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

For relative grip between tyres I am capable of sensing it, but i can't measure it, i couldn't tell you the difference with numbers. I can only say which wears quicker, or which feels harder.


Doesn't change the fact that the next time i buy, I'm buying cheap!

So to get back on topic. A F1 tyre's performance doesn't change how i view their road tyres. In fact i think I would just trust and respect the brand a little more because F1 publicizes the tyre so much that it gets in your brain.
For instance bridgestone, i somewhat respect the brand just because it was the F1 tyre for quite a while. Not because of how poor or well it did in F1.

I was talking about relative grip. It's just that the way you wrote in your last post made it look like you couldn't feel any difference but the price.

I can't give you a "tire grip number" as well, nor I compare personally various sets before buying them, but there are sensible differences and by experiencing various sets during your use of a car you can see them. I believe you can do this as well as you said and locking the rear sooner or later may very well be an indicative of the different performances.

Magazine tests and overall public experience are also other measurements, and so is comparing times in a track day between similar cars. No need to drive at the limit on the street or do slaloms. The speedometer test can be done when having quite a margin to the limit as well. It's something any petrol head can do for you before you buy your tires

For instance, if you are looking purely to durability, your "cheap" tires maybe lasting like 28k miles while in the same price tag or for very little more someone can recommend one that lasts 40k and a more expensive one which will go to 45k with much more grip at the same time. That's why it's important to research and not just going into the shop and getting anything.

Also, check for you alignment settings and rotate the fronts with the rears from time to time to avoid that uneven wear. Maybe that's what's killing your tires, as it's perfectly possible to keep tires for over 4 years (if you don't drive that much and with the help of tires that last longer, of course).

On the F1 issue, yes, sometimes even if you know their presence there doesn't mean much you sympathise with the brand.

[Sayshina]

Quote taken from ESPN F1
"Pirelli has hit back at the ongoing criticism from some drivers over the severe degradation of its tyres during pre-season testing."

Hahaha, the season hasn't even started yet and they're defending themselves and finger pointing already. Bad press equals bad image I'm afraid.
They should have stuck to making the best tire they could develop or get out and let some other tire manufacturer take the bait.

G-rock, I'll try again. A few years back the tire rules were changed, requiring 1 set to last the entire race. Michelin dominated that season. The rules were immediately changed the following season to REQUIRE a tire change, whether or not the teams wanted to. Whether or not it made sense technically. This is an arbitrary rule that has no technical basis. The stated intention of this rule was to "spice up the show". That is not something an engineer would say. Bridgestone and Michelin both raced under this arbitrary rule.

Last year we had an exclusive tire supplier who was required to make tires that conformed to a set of rules, some of which have to be called a bit goofy. This year we have a different tire supplier required to make tires that conform to a set of rules, some of which have to be called a bit goofy. Last year, and this year for that matter, F1 cars are required to use 2 separate compounds during the race. This is no good technical reason for a car to do this, said car will always perform at least slightly better on one compound than the other. Before this rule was made, for many years tire manufacturers often brought several, in not many, compounds to a race. Baring weather considerations and qualifying tires, it was nearly universal practice for teams to pick a compound they liked and stick with it throughout the weekend.

Does this make Bridgestone stupid for conforming to the brief they were handed? If they had been able to make a tire that could last the entire race and perform at a very high and consistent level, whouldn't it have been in their best interest to do so? Is it somehow a mark against them that they refused to stand up to the FIA and demand they be allowed to make the highest performing tires they were capable of making?

What's going on here is two things. The first is spectator syndrome. You didn't hear anything about the technical compromises that went into last years tires, and if you don't know about them they can't matter.

The second thing is the changover in manufacturers. When Bridgestone was made the sole tire supplier, by an arbitrary and anticompetitive rule I might add, the former Michelin teams were expected to change their cars to conform to the existing tire that Bridgestone gave them. Now that Pirelli have taken over the supply, Pirelli is being asked to make their tires conform to the existing cars, with a couple of new wrinkles thrown in because the FIA likes to do that every few years. If you understood the task that Pirelli have faced this year you would understand they've actually done a phenomenal job.

Certain drivers will complain every time there is a major technical change, and changing tire supply is about as big as a change can get. I seem to recall drivers complain the first year the Bridgestone control tire was used too, because it was noticably harder than what they were used to. You're going to hear complaints this year, and next year it will be old news.

Archaic tire design: They have to be that size to keep brake sizes in check? You're talking about a sanctioning body that specifies a modulus of elasticity for the brake calipers. They couldn't find an alternate means of control?

As for the tires themselves, you don't see those sorts of aspect rations anywhere in racing that doesn't require them by rule. I would bet any suspension guy you asked, in or out of F1, would tell you they wouldn't exist in F1 if they were not required by rule.

[Jersey Tom]

There are some nice things about tall sidewalls and small wheels you know.

[strad]

The sidewall is the way it is because the tire makes up so much of the suspension movement. Back to that how siff are F1 tires topic.
What I'm most concerned about is that we decided to have no refueling so we would stop having two or three sprint races within the Grand Prix,,,Now Pirelli are making tires on purpose that will wear and require 2 or 3 tire stops...Back to the sprints and no real racing...just wait and try to pass in the pits.

[Sayshina]

The sidewall is the way it is because the tire makes up so much of the suspension movement. Back to that how siff are F1 tires topic.
What I'm most concerned about is that we decided to have no refueling so we would stop having two or three sprint races within the Grand Prix,,,Now Pirelli are making tires on purpose that will wear and require 2 or 3 tire stops...Back to the sprints and no real racing...just wait and try to pass in the pits.

Strad, the tire makes up so much of the suspension because the sidewall is the way it is, not the other way around. Suspensions are much better at controling ride height than tires, even taking into consideration how far tires have come.

As I said earlier, Michelin asked to change the aspect ratio as part of their proposal, and just about every suspension guy who's ever spoken up on the subject has said tires would look very different if they were allowed to.

And yes, there are some good things about larger sidewalls, but racing across many formulae has shown that tires with short sidewalls tend to outperform them.