Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.
autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Dragonfly wrote:The topic is way too serious for primitive challenges like the above one.
If someone feels triumphant that a disaster happened, that speaks volumes about his mentality.
:(
Please do not start with the moral superiority ticket. It shows just what you are.
It makes you look far far worse than I.
I have made it plain that I feel greatly for all those affected by this disaster.
Perhaps you to can give us the benefit of your 'technical' knowledge in regard to the disaster. If you have a useful contribution please, please give it, anything that might help the people of Japan must be acceptable.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Another tsunami coming up!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-0 ... ssued.html
A magnitude 7.4 earthquake hit 215 miles (345 kilometers) northeast of Tokyo, resulting in warnings of a possible tsunami.

The quake was measured at a depth of about 25 miles and struck about 11:32 p.m. local time, the U.S. Geological Survey reported on its website.

Japan issued a tsunami alert for a possible two-meter wave.
Now all of that radioactive water pumped in the NPP, as well as the one dumped in the Pacific, will be swept back to coast and absorbed by the soil.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110407006089.htm
TEPCO entertaining no hopes of quick fix

The Yomiuri Shimbun

It has been nearly a month since the earthquake and tsunami devastated northeastern Japan, but the situation surrounding the reactors at Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant remains perilous.

TEPCO is considering installing additional cooling systems as part of a new plan to stabilize the reactors damaged by the March 11 disaster.

According to estimates released by the utility Wednesday, 70 percent of fuel rods at the No. 1 reactor have been damaged. At the Nos. 2 and 3 reactors, 25 percent to 30 percent of fuel rods have been damaged, the utility said.

The company based the damage assessment on levels of radioactive xenon and krypton detected in gas near the reactors' containment vessels. These substances are supposed to be contained within nuclear fuel and should not be released.

TEPCO said it gauged the extent of the xenon and krypton leaks by considering factors such as radiation levels and the length of time the fuel rods had been exposed.

Damage to fuel rods could result in a hole in their zircalloy cladding, or a meltdown of the fuel rods themselves. TEPCO said details of the damage to the reactors' fuel rods remain unknown.

In the reactor cores, temperatures at the midpoints--where fuel rods are supposed to be located--are higher than at the base of the reactors. This suggests that meltdown of the fuel rods, which would see them accumulate at the bottom, has not occurred, according to TEPCO.

On March 14, radiation levels at the containment vessel of the No. 3 reactor, where a large portion of the fuel rods was believed to have been exposed, were measured at 167 sieverts per hour. This figure is roughly equivalent to radiation levels 400 meters from ground zero after the 1945 U.S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

Experts have expressed alarm at the current situation at the Fukushima plant.

"If fuel rods melt, they might accumulate in a shape like a soft-boiled egg about four meters in diameter and two meters thick," said Michio Ishikawa, top adviser to the Japan Nuclear Technology Institute. "It might look like steaming magma, with uranium fuel and zirconium pipes melted together."

If fuel rods melt and form a mass, the exposed surface area will be reduced. Cooling the reactors would therefore take even longer because the mass would retain more heat and pumping water on it would have less effect.

Radiation levels at the No. 1 reactor peaked at 162 sieverts per hour on March 14, and the No. 2 reactor saw radiation levels peak at 138 sieverts per hour on March 15.

Those highs were measured after those reactors lost significant volumes of cooling water around their fuel rods, leaving large parts of them exposed to the air. This has also happened at the No. 3 reactor.

Injection of water has caused radiation levels at all the three reactors to fall. Current levels are between 20 and 31 sieverts, or just 11 percent to 22 percent of their peaks.

However, the current radiation levels are still far from safe. Two workers were killed in a 1999 nuclear accident in Tokaimura, Ibaraki Prefecture, after being exposed radiation levels of between six and 18 sieverts.

TEPCO is aware that working near the reactor containment vessels is dangerous.

"Radiation levels are extremely high, so we can't do any work there right now," said one official of the utility.

Osaka University Prof. Keiji Miyazaki, an expert in nuclear engineering, said, "Radioactive substances probably leaked from damaged fuel rods and reached the reactor containment vessels through valves or some other route."

"The radiation levels are way too high for workers to get close [to the reactors]," he said. "It'll certainly take a very long time to inspect the condition of the damaged reactors."
(Apr. 8, 2011)
This is actually the first time that I read about the true maximum radiation levels at the damaged reactors in Fukushima. During the ongoing crisis TEPCO reported only values well below 1 Sv which were measured hundreds of meters away from the reactors. It sounds unlikely that anybody will be able to construct a new closed loop water cooling circuit to one of the molten core puddles there for a very long time. This implicates that millions of tons of water will be contaminated in the effort to cool down the run away reaction. TEPCO cannot continue to dump this radioactivity into the Pacific Ocean. What are they going to do with it?


It is entirely relevant to the technical debate what the damage of worst case nuclear accidents are and how often they actually occur. The true liability cost depend of those questions. Naturally there is also the follow up question if the society is really supposed to let equipment suppliers and utilities get away with fractions of the insurance premiums needed to pay for the total liability they should carry and dump the clean up cost and damage claims to the tax payers.

In that context it is very relevant to look at the question of where the accident occurred. If a plant nearer to Tokyo had been affected the impact would have been much greater. Already now we are probably looking at damages exceeding €500bn and each day the reactors are out of control and the clean up is delayed adds to the damage bill. So the likely actual cost are going to be in the €1,000bn order. The worst case with an almost direct hit of full nuclear fall out on a metropolis like Tokyo could have easily resulted in damages of €15,000bn. The mind boggles at the idea to evacuate Tokyo and clean up a metropolitan area from caesium-137 fall out with something like 1,000 Becquerel per square meter and day.

It is very relevant for the energy debate to discuss the full cost of the power generating methods including the decommissioning cost, the cost of nuclear waste disposal and the true insurance or capital risk cost. And quite obviously in that context it is very relevant whether you have your worst case accident in an area where 100 million people inhabit the fall out zone - like central Europe - or perhaps 20,000 in the case of some desert states in the USA. The proof of this point is the different political treatment the risks of nuclear accidents get in Germany and Finland. The cost of a catastrophic accident of Chernobyl or Fukushima type in Germany would be ten thousand times higher than in a desert location.

As it stand we can conclude that an accident with a €1,000bn damage statistically occurs each 25 years with 500 reactors running. And we cannot exclude that a big one with €15,000bn could happen. The logical conclusion is that the suppliers and operators have to insure between the two points of proven statistical outcome and potential maximum damage. If we settle on a collective damage fund of €6,250bn over 25 years each nuclear power plant will have to pay €500mil insurance premium per annum or €15bn over the course of a regular plant life. It means that the actual capital cost of the investment multiplies with a factor of four compared to today. Instead of €5.5bn per plant you are suddenly looking at €20.5bn.

But one can also look slightly different at the true cost scenario. It was said that the owners of the seven nuclear power plants that are now shut down in Germany can suffer a loss of profit of €1m per day and plant. We conclude that they typically earn €350m per year by the operation. If they have to pay the true insurance cost of €500m per year they would simply stop running the plants by themselves.

Everybody who looks at these figures should instantly realize why it is important for tax payers and the public debate to make sure that all hidden costs are figured into the various power generating scenarios. If you end up squandering you national wealth on costly nuclear damage repair and compensation instead of making investments into future proof power generating and distribution technology you are gambling with the future of your children. You may take the risk and get away with it but inevitably for one or the other nuclear happy nation the pay day will come like today it did for Japan and the responsible politicians will look like idiots and criminals.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Your post makes literally spine chilling reading WB, it literally made me shudder to my core. But TBH this is what I feared would happen as soon as I heard that there was a problem at Fukushima.

At the risk of going a little off topic, I have to confess to some personal feelings about this situation which has made me feel uneasy.

When Chernobyl bit the dust, lots of people were drafted in to deal with it, leading inevitably to their deaths. I expected at the time (and I was quite young back then) that such a decision would perhaps NOT have been made if such an incident happened in the western (or indeed eastern) world. i.e. to send people to their deaths to clean up this mess.

In a way, at the time at least, I thought to myself how terrible that a state could literally send people to their deaths in order to reduce the harm/damage for the rest of us. But now I am thinking perhaps actually the former soviet union got it right and my thoughts back then were right.

Perhaps it's a difficult question to answer, but personally, if I make a mess, I expect to suffer the consequences of cleaning it up. My mother won't do it for me any more.

Perhaps every country who is willing to take the risk of building nuclear installations, of any sort, should be compelled to ensure that they have the will, determination, and lack of care for their own people or perhaps call it heartlessness, to ensure that in the event of a disaster such as this, they will send people to their deaths to contain it.

I don't know, the right answer to the above question. If it were me, I wouldn't be able to make that call, and for that reason, if I were the one making the decision on whether or not to build NPPs, I would say no. Firmly and wholeheartedly. We would just have to suffer the extra cost of importing energy from "whoever".

As for containment, does anyone have any ideas on how this could actually be contained.
- I've considered burying the plant in concrete, but surely the concrete would never cure under such tremendous heat?
- I've considered building some sort of sarcophogus (spelling?) of concrete, but how would you build the shuttering?
- Whichever solution you come up with, how could you be sure it would withstand the NEXT tsunami? (by next, I mean until the radiation has dissipated to a truly acceptible level)

However it is dealt with (if indeed it ever is?) my heart sinks for the poor people of Japan who have now been hit by probably three of the biggest disasters in history, and potentially the biggest one (which might well affect us all) is man made.

As I've said before, I am not a religious person by any stretch, but in this case, perhaps it would be better (for my selfish soul, whatever that means) if I were?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

I find it amazing, but quite logical come to think of it, that after all this time they simply don't know the actual state of the rods, the cooling circuits, the containment structures or even the storage pools.
The working instruments are not enough or not reliable, and all they can do is measure the released radioactivity and deduce from it where it must be coming from.
It is really difficult to fix a problem that you can not see and hence you do not really understand.
Rivals, not enemies.

User avatar
forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

I agree Hollus, it must be a matter of detective work, going on what they are able to actually determine.

Any ideas on how (or if!) they might actually contain this mess?

Presumably any containment structure would need to be:
- air-tight in order to ensure no future releases?
- yet allow for some air circulation, or some other means of shedding heat from within
- Earthquake proof (to prevent a collapse in the future which might send a cloud of radioactive dust into the air).
- Tsunami proof
- Designed to last and maintain integrity for at least 100 years

That is a pretty tall order by anyone's book I would have thought!
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Just when I thought I was crazy, alternative method of cooling the reactor just appeared.

Esoteric bs fanatics have sent love to water inside the NPP in Fukushima.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=152542421477149
Please send your prayers of love and gratitude to water at the nuclear plants in Fukushima, Japan!

By the massive earthquakes and surreal massive tsunamis, more than 10,000 people are still missing…even now… It has been 17 days already since the disaster happened. What makes it worse is that water at the reactors of Fukushima Nuclear Plants started to leak, and it’s contaminating the ocean, air and water molecules of surrounding areas.

Human wisdom has not been able to do much to solve the problem, but we are only trying to cool down the anger of radioactive materials in the reactors by discharging water to them.

Is there really nothing else to do?

I think there is. During over twenty year research of hado measuring and water crystal photographic technology, I have been witnessing that water can turn positive when it receives pure vibration of human prayer no matter how far away it is.
Energy formula of Albert Einstein, E=MC2 really means that Energy = number of people and the square of people’s consciousness.

Now is the time to understand the true meaning. Let us all join the prayer ceremony as fellow citizens of the planet earth. I would like to ask all people, not just in Japan, but all around the world to please help us to find a way out the crisis of this planet!!
The prayer procedure is as follows.

Name of ceremony:

“Let’s send our thoughts of love and gratitude to all water in the nuclear plants in Fukushima”

Day and Time:
March 31st, 2011 (Thursday)
12:00 noon in each time zone

Please say the following phrase:

“The water of Fukushima Nuclear Plant,
we are sorry to make you suffer.
Please forgive us. We thank you, and we love you.”


Please say it aloud or in your mind. Repeat it three times as you put your hands together in a prayer position. Please offer your sincere prayer.

Thank you very much from my heart.

With love and gratitude,
Masaru Emoto
Messenger of Water
ImageImageImageImageImage

User avatar
forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

And yet again, Fukushia falls off the news, here in the UK at least.

I understand that the news organisations perhaps don't wan't to panic the people, but in the case of the BBC at least, they are supposed to be balanced..... and REPORT THE NEWS.

This event is, by any means the largest Nuclear incident of any type since at least Chernobyl, and it's barely making the news. WTF BBC!!!!

Instead we hear about Libya and the Ivory Coast, which granted are important, but I care about Fukushima, and I care about the welfare of my children, which Fukushima may very well directly concern.
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Fukushima has had more column inches than I can remember for several years, probably since the last major tsunami. However, it can't be the top headline every single day, the public get news fatigue and ignore it.

The clue is that front page news need to be new, it can't be same as yesterday.

Fukushima has had the headlines for several weeks, there are other things going on in the world that also need to be reported. I think it right that Ivory Coast gets its moment in the news, it'll have a lot less column inches than Fukushima. It'll be forgetten while Fukushima will continue to get coverage (albeit not always the headlines)

...

For example, BBC News are running a special report from Chernobyl as I'm writing this. That's an example of Fukushima story influencing the news agenda away from the headlines. They are inside the reactor control room in protective clothing, but walking around outside in normal clothing.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Two articles worth reading.

About a lie that radiation will disperse into ocean:

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/japan-s-ocea ... ?pagereq=1

About Tepco's inhuman segregation between their staff and non-company workers hired to take the risks for ridiculous salaries, without being told what they are exposed to:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/a ... _big_risk/


r_l, Not being in the headlines = coverup. This is the event with greatest influence on planet earth in the previous quarter of the century, at least.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

The BBC should be running daily updates at least.
It is obviously kept low key to avoid panic and for the benefit of the nuclear industry. I note again that there seems to be a decided lack of pro nuclear posts everywhere at present. Have their excuses dried up?
I am hearing that perhaps a third of Japans land mass may have to be evacuated, will the pro nuclear posters state absolutely otherwise?

Jenosis
Jenosis
0
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 18:49

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

There is one approach to bundle ideas and risk analysis in a Non-profit Open Innovation portal as contribution to end nuke crisis in Fukushima.
The situation at Fukushima Daiichi is still as difficult as 4 weeks ago. Engineers struggle to stabilize the situation and progress is difficult to achieve in view of numerous issues to be solved simultaneously. To bundle technical expert knowledge - now distributed over a number of web sites and discussion groups - InventCap started a Non-Profit open innovation portal "Help to stop nuke crisis in Fukushima"

Technical proposals about health and environment protection, cooling systems, radiation protection, general plant repair issues and measurement techniques will be collected and rated. Promising proposals will be forwarded to the IAEA and TEPCO.

User avatar
forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

Thanks for your comment Jenosis, and welcome to the forum.

I will take a look at the link you posted.


Cheers

As for the public suffering news fatigue (Richard), may I remind everyone of the Madeleine McCann story which rumbled on for nearly a year? Granted, that was a terribly upsetting story, and led to the APPARENT death of an innocent little girl, which as a human being and father I find very distressing, but that case was about ONE person and her hapless parents, this story literally affects every person on the planet, and directly affects tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in Japan.

I just think that a news outlet's role is not to decide to keep quiet about a story in case it worries people, give us the facts, nothing more nothing less.
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post


User avatar
forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Fukushima Technical Discussion

Post

^^^

Chilling.

Post apocalyptic doesn't really sum it up does it?

But the guys making the film, are they tired of living or something?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?