Fukushima Technical Discussion

[forty-two]

The figures given omit to tell you that radio active particles lodge in human organs when ingested or inhaled. Some including Iodine build up in certain organs and most can cause the onset of cancers.
Whether you end up with particles in your body is simply a lottery.
A lottery with the odds calculated of course but still a lottery.
I do not want governments or greedy nuclear promoters playing gambling games with my body or that of my grandchildren.

Thanks for the clarification Autogyro,

I could not agree more.

It reminds me of the old "DDT" issue, perfectly safe in small doses, but nobody admitted that it would build up to dangerous levels after a relatively short time of little doses.

[Shrieker]

The newspaper of 30 mar says that traces of plutonium has been found in the soil (round Fukushima I guess). Can't be good...

[forty-two]

I heard a whisper yesterday (I think it was on SKY news) that there is talk of building some form of containment around reactor buildings 1-4.

The way I see it, they can't go pouring concrete onto this heap of junk just yet. At least not until the fissile material stops giving off a significant portion of it's decay heat, otherwise not only would it prevent the concrete from curing properly (isn't concrete curing is an exothermic reaction?) but also presumably would pose a risk of creating a "pressure cooker" type situation?

Another apparent problem is that there is now nowhere to put all the radioactive water which is collected beneath the stricken reactors. I bet that ends up finding it's way into the sea.

[forty-two]

Low levels of radiation found in milk in the US as reported by the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/us/31milk.html
This flags up the fact that although the levels of Iodine 131 are low, they will be concentrated in the cow's digestive system. Presumably the same could be true for humans who later consume milk from these cows?

Pressure from the UN to increase exclusion zone around Fukushima:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12916688

And an interesting report about the situation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12908313
Note that this cites "unconfirmed reports" about the possibility of "draping" the reactors.

[autogyro]

Latest is that they are giving up on cooling two of the reactors, are going to turn off the power and cover them in concrete.
Now it begins.

[hollus]

This is so we all can follow almost first hand information. Notice that it comes from the mouth of the devil, so to say. I like hearing the version from both sides of a debate. Still, reading between the lines it has a lot of "although TEPCO says everything is fine, we know this and it probably means (whatever) even if TEPCO will keep it quiet". This makes me think that it is more or less reliable information.

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsu ... ate01.html

Regarding the "radiation detected" reports. Numbers, people, numbers! Without a proper unit, "detected" means nothing, because radioactivity is stupidly easy to detect. I should know, we use it at work in very, very, very, very small amounts exactly for that reason, it allows you to follow around small amounts of compounds where you have put isotopes in.
Plutonium detected? yes. It comes from the reactor? yes. But it is only the same amount that is everywhere since the atmospheric nuclear tests from the 60s. If no more comes out, it won't be a problem, although of course there must be more where that came from...
Same with Iodine 131. Of course it can be detected in the UK, this only means that wind had time to make it two thirds of around the world since the tsunami. The amonts are small, but bioaccumulation could make them a problem. As you put it, cows will concentrate it in their milk, and then humans a bit more in the tyroid gland. But the half life of Iodine 131 is 8.5 days, so the amount of radionuclide will almost half every week, which puts the problem in perspective (in comparison, Pu238 stays more or less the same over periods of years).

Remember, no Geiger counter in the world ever stops counting, tac, tac, tac, tatatac! There is a background level of radiation and nothing that isn't many many times that is harmful. So "detected" without doses, means next to nothing.

[manchild]

Picture taken on 24th March 2011

Control room for unit 1 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:


For the non-IAEA and non-TEPCO info check http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... kingwaves/

Greenpeace has their own experts in Fukushima.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... blog/33954

[Richard]

Picture taken on 24th March 2011

Control room for unit 1 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:

We know one of them was being refurbished, so that makes sense. Or do you propose that control rooms must never be refitted and modernised?

[Pup]

I think the point is that nuclear energy is dangerous since lighting baffles can dislodge during an earthquake and make things look messy.

[WhiteBlue]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StYxRtKfzmA[/youtube]

This is the analysis by a concerned American expert who says nothing that has not been suspected by engineers before, who are familiar with the videos from the site. The message is very clear: The fuel pool at reactor #4 is destroyed, we have fuel rods that are in melt down and they have destroyed the pool. The water which is being sprayed is evaporating and the upward steam draft carries nuclear materials from the damaged fuel rods into the atmosphere at alarming rates. The air over the former pool which is now a molten fuel puddle must have hundreds of millisieverts per hour of radiation.
Under conditions like this it is not possible that normal cooling water circulation will ever be achieved again, because the pool is destroyed. We have a nuclear chain reaction going on there which is only moderated by the molten moderating elements and the boron which was injected at the begin of the crisis. Only continuing spraying with water will keep some of the worst heat from accumulating. Until the molten fuel and moderation element puddle has burned out most of its heat will burn all organic material it will find on its path down the building and into the earth.

Why do concerned private citizens tell you what is happening at Fukushima while Tepco, the government and the nuclear watchdogs all try to pull the wool over our eyes?

[Richard]

Why do concerned private citizens tell you what is happening at Fukushima while Tepco, the government and the nuclear watchdogs all try to pull the wool over our eyes?

Therein lies the start of every conspiracy theory.

[Pup]

WB's Concerned American Expert earns his living as an anti-nuclear activist.

[WhiteBlue]

WB's Concerned American Expert earns his living as an anti-nuclear activist.

It is very sensible to change your mind on the use of nuclear energy when you see what is actually happening. Pup is not even saying that Arnie Gunderson is wrong. Actually it would be very silly to say that when you can see the structures of the broken fuel pool and the reactors with your own eyes on the video. With every day of the Fukushima disaster it becomes clearer that the industry has been underestimating the risks and that the critics were much more realistic with their view.

[manchild]

I wonder how deep can it melt trough.

Let's just say that it reaches the volcanic lava and opens the way for an eruption. That would mean that all of radioactive material would be blown up in the atmosphere and scattered globally. Having plutonium falling as part of the ashes and dirty rain would be worse than local nuclear explosion.

How deep can it go? Can it reach earths core?

Can it detour depending on structure of the earth it penetrates and exit somewhere else?

What's the part of the globe opposite from Japan?

There is so much unknown. So much that reacting will be too late whenever it occurs.

Perhaps, weeks, years or decades from now the scientists will say "best thing would have been to evacuate east and central Japan, and than deliberately cause a nuclear explosion that would consume melting fuel rods, instead of allowing them to penetrate into earth without being controlled and monitored."

What they are doing right now with that spraying with water has same chance to end it as pissing of forest fire.

[autogyro]

The disaster is unlikely to become as bad as you are worried about Manchild.

However, I would like to ask pup and the other nuclear supporters if they are now prepared to agree with me and state that the disaster is now recognised as three level 7 disasters?