Mike Coughlan joins Williams after Stepneygate sentence

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Coughlan

Post

the whole story got dragged to sunlight because of alonso who leaked the info towards the FIA after not getting things his way with Ron Dennis,right?
I see the Toyota /Ferrari case in a similar context people taking actual data (in the good old days called blueprints)with tzhem and using actual original data.
But then Brunner took the data from Ferrari to Rial and Newey build a Leytonhouse carboncopy in his first year with Williams....
I´d say the transfer of more than knowledge is quite common ...

gridwalker
gridwalker
7
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 12:22
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Coughlan

Post

I'm sorry : Newey cloned a Leyton House in his first year at Williams???

Newey left Leyton House and joined Williams in 1990, so lets look at the 1990 Leyton house and the 1991 Williams :

Leyton House CG901 Judd

Image

Williams FW14 Renault
Image

I'm sorry, but I just can't see too many similarities ...
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Coughlan

Post

the complete cockpit area ,sidepod entry,sidepod shape.The leyton house had a more extreme tub crossection at the front ,that´s right .
but even the nose disappeariung into the main wing is similar ..or look at the sculpureing of the endplates...
no wonder he headed the design for both

gridwalker
gridwalker
7
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 12:22
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Coughlan

Post

Sure, there are a few similar design features, but that is hardly a "carbon copy".

If we look at the 1990 FW13, you can see some of the same design elements that you say Newey brought with him :

Image

Notably, you can see that the Williams nose was already merging with the front wing before Newey arrived on the scene, which is only to be expected in a restricted formula where design convergence is common.

Either way, this example isn't particularly relevant, as the data transfer would have been through the knowledge of an individual who moved between organisations : Coughlan's crime was accepting information from a third party who was employed by a rival team.

These two instances of data transfer are so different as to be incomparable.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

FirstandLast
FirstandLast
0
Joined: 14 Apr 2011, 18:08

Re: Coughlan

Post

JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Corrupt engineers ought to be made an example of, for reasons I explained.
If you want a whiter than white F1 you would have to empty half the pit lane.

Caito
Caito
13
Joined: 16 Jun 2009, 05:30
Location: Switzerland

Re: Coughlan

Post

A "morality" question.

Let's suppose no actual book of data is given.

But a guy changes company. A guy with such a good memory he can almost recreate that book. Is that as bad as giving "the book"?


It's easy yo judge the first one, but the second one.. you can't tell someone to forget what he knows..
Come back 747, we miss you!!

User avatar
Mr Alcatraz
-27
Joined: 18 May 2008, 15:10
Location: San Diego Ca. USA

Re: Coughlan

Post

axle wrote:Business is Competition. Survival by any means necessary.

Ferrari (who will complain most) are the ones that have bent/broken the rules most to know that best...

No one in F1 hasn't cheated. Renault had data, McLaren had data, Toyota had data and technically anyone that hires anyone from another team gains data. It's all incestuous.

If the FIA didn't punish him enough in your opinion...tell them.
But note, he didn't end up in jail.
As for my part I guess I left out “an athletic/sporting competition” as opposed to a business.
I doubt if you would get hundreds of millions to watch CEO's slit each other’s throats.
On second thought I think they made a TV show out of that. :?

My god what a gullible breed.
Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand

feynman
feynman
3
Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 20:36

Re: Coughlan

Post

FirstandLast wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Corrupt engineers ought to be made an example of, for reasons I explained.
If you want a whiter than white F1 you would have to empty half the pit lane.
Yes, and then be left with the honest half. And now you have flushed-out the cheats and liars you leave room for new honest, hard-working, engineers, previously frozen-out, to get their start and have successful careers.

And this is problematic or undesirable how?


If cheating, lying and stealing is as prevalent and widespread as you would have us believe, then that is exactly why it should be prosecuted ferociously, it is not an argument for ignoring it. Ignoring it, condoning it, is precisely how it would have gotten as bad as you now claim it to be.

You don't respond to increasing theft by making stealing legal. What you do is jump on the perpetrators hard and with both feet. You clarify the moral calculus for them, you make any slim risk of consequences worse than the potential benefits.
Rebalance risk/reward and state clearly for the avoidance of all doubt behaviours which are considered unacceptable and will not be tolerated or lightly excused.

Therefore this means not indulging in politically motivated immunities for cheats, consulting gigs and promotions for rogue engineers and not paddock passes for liars and racefixers.

The choice by Williams to employ cheats like Coughlan is therefore disappointing. Rather than team management stand-up for apparently beleaguered notions of integrity and honesty, rather than helping rebalance and correct the failed morality of F1, it instead chooses to help drag it further into the mire.
Williams can hire who they please, that is their right. Just as it is our right to hope the decision leads to nothing but abject failure for them.
Like I say, disappointing.

axle
axle
3
Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Coughlan

Post

1st Point
Again I reiterate that if the punishment wasn't enough THAT'S NOT MC's FAULT!! Once the man has completed his punishment then he should be allowed to work again - that's the point of Prison (not that it works too often) to educate offenders and RE-INTRODUCE them into society as more useful and better versions of their previous selves. The ENTIRE point is to give people a chance to prove themselves. You lot might as well shoot every fecker in every jail as you've decided they can never be better, can never do good because they chose the wrong path once.

2nd Point
Cheating is definitely what MC did. 100% agree, he gained an unfair advantage.
But you must not compare cheating with copying, understanding and implementing design work by others etc. You learn from competition...whilst you work on innovations of your own.

3rd Point
Teams usually put the people that are leaving out to pasture, it's expensive but makes sure they can't work on anything current and so hopefully they can't take anything cutting edge to their competitors. And F1 is a cutting edge business, you can be out the loop very fast. So whilst they will retain methodology and an understanding of what they worked on...they won't know everything. Engineers usually work on parts/areas not the whole car. Only the Newey's etc visualise the whole car and bring it together.

So, I think MC should be given a chance to re-integrate into the F1 Society. He has served the time the Governing body decided he should (not some keyboard warriors' ideals maybe but that doesn't matter). Copying and Cheating are different. And you don't have to be out of F1 long to be behind the times/thinking. MC didn't instigate his cheating, he stupidly didn't say no. He didn't put lives in danger (Flav, Pat).

I think a lot of people who don't really know the facts (like I don't) are making out cheating is almost a capital offence. Seriously I know you like your sport but lets calm down.
- Axle

axle
axle
3
Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Coughlan

Post

Oh and just for the record - McLaren whom were ultimately fined $100m for MC's cheating have welcomed his return.

'nuff said me thinks.
- Axle

User avatar
JohnsonsEvilTwin
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Coughlan

Post

Axle

That Mclaren or Ghandi welcomed him back does not change a thing. You accept he cheated, and you accept it was wrong. Great.
But you say its not his fault he is back, its the penalty that was imposed and his time was done. Fair enough.

In that case I will deduce a few things. The FIA lacked bollocks to make an example of Coughlan.
And Coughlan has the temerity to waltz back in to F1 and show his face like nothing happened.
Offences like the one he and Stepney commited should be punishable by never being allowed to work in F1 again. The whole fallout of the spygate saga was an embarrassment to F1, and should it happen again we will know where the blame should be apportioned.
More could have been done.
David Purley

axle
axle
3
Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Coughlan

Post

Waltz? Like nothing happened? Really? I have not seen heard anything of the sort. Oh wait you're making up "facts" again.

The FIA may have failed in your eyes...but then did you lodge your dissatisfaction at the time? Or just now as it's inconvenient that he's joined a team. You're acting like his arrival is some big threat as well, he might fail you know...fail to produce a winning car.

As many have said he's not the only one involved so why should he be stopped from working? Who are you to say what really went on and how he should have been punished? You think Spygate will happen again and that MC will be involved - OMG you're so juvenile it's laughable. Grow up and let people move on.
- Axle

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Coughlan

Post

In Nascar there is a wall of shame -for those who cheat ,the crew chiefs get fined (the boss is paying)they get suspended ,put on probation...I see no real difference in cheating -bending the rules around the spirit of the rules and taking data and information from one team to another to gain an advantage.
Racing is all but a clean sport..even the most respected guys have done weird things to get an advantage.

User avatar
Fil
0
Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 14:54
Location: Melbourne, Aus.

Re: Coughlan

Post

JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote: In that case I will deduce a few things. The FIA lacked bollocks to make an example of Coughlan.
And Coughlan has the temerity to waltz back in to F1 and show his face like nothing happened.
He has been judged and sentenced, and paid his dues.
You have absolutely no right to blame him for trying to get on with his professional life.

Your grievance is with the FIA's judiciary, not with the man.
Any post(s) made by this user are (semi-)educated opinion(s), based on random fact(s) blurred by the smudges of time.
Any fact(s) claimed by this user will be supplemented by a link to the original source of said fact(s).

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Coughlan

Post

gridwalker wrote:Sure, there are a few similar design features, but that is hardly a "carbon copy".

If we look at the 1990 FW13, you can see some of the same design elements that you say Newey brought with him :

Notably, you can see that the Williams nose was already merging with the front wing before Newey arrived on the scene, which is only to be expected in a restricted formula where design convergence is common.

Either way, this example isn't particularly relevant, as the data transfer would have been through the knowledge of an individual who moved between organisations : Coughlan's crime was accepting information from a third party who was employed by a rival team.

These two instances of data transfer are so different as to be incomparable.
you are propably right..I think Newey put as much as he could on the Williams when he arrived but some genes and things for sure were already set when he arrived.Still the similarities are striking (apart for hook of the nose).But maybe it was just the style of the cars back then.
My point is:Designers take their expertise with them to the next employer ..that s the reason for gardening leave...to remove the possibility of transferring current findings directly to a competitor.
Couglan and Stepney accumulated a lot of detail and overall knowledge of the two main players in F1 and this combination would have been gold for anyone in the paddock.
The real point is that Coughlan passed that information to the wrong people in a very naive way.If he came up with all those ideas out of the blue in Mclaren he would possibly have been considered a new ÜBER designer...but he seemed to bolster his suggestions claiming it was current information about how Ferrari worked....speaks volumes...And if he was on his way to Honda together with stepney...why help Mclaren...naive.not criminal