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Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 18:04
by saviour stivala
trinidefender wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 04:38
saviour stivala wrote: ↑22 May 2018, 18:07
trinidefender wrote: ↑22 May 2018, 15:57
No that part is fairly clear.
120kw is a power rating. Equivalent to about 163 metric HP (At 95% efficiency) which can be added or subtracted from the drivetrain.
The 4MJ limit is an energy limit and only applies from the ES to the MGU-K. The MGU-H can provide extra energy to extend this 33.333 seconds (at 120kW) for as long as it can provide extra energy.
totally out of order, totaaly Misinterpreting ERS rules and regulations, just speculating.
Maybe this will clear it up. Here is the official F1 website with the full regulations linked if you would like to read them.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... d_ERS.html
"A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).
A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.
An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."
That is a quote from the website. Is this settled now?
What is clear is the final link between electrical power and the drive train is the MGU-K and whatever is thrown at it it can only pass-on to the drive train 120kw for 33.33 seconds per lap.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 18:19
by trinidefender
saviour stivala wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 18:04
trinidefender wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 04:38
saviour stivala wrote: ↑22 May 2018, 18:07
totally out of order, totaaly Misinterpreting ERS rules and regulations, just speculating.
Maybe this will clear it up. Here is the official F1 website with the full regulations linked if you would like to read them.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... d_ERS.html
"A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).
A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.
An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."
That is a quote from the website. Is this settled now?
What is clear is the final link between electrical power and the drive train is the MGU-K and whatever is thrown at it it can only pass-on to the drive train 120kw for 33.33 seconds per lap.
Where do you get 33.33 seconds per lap from?
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 18:21
by dans79
saviour stivala wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 18:04
What is clear is the final link between electrical power and the drive train is the MGU-K and whatever is thrown at it it can only pass-on to the drive train 120kw for 33.33 seconds per lap.
For like the 10th time, no this is wrong.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 18:35
by LM10
dans79 wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 16:23
LM10 wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 12:14
The shot of Mercedes was obviously directed against Ferrari. But it missed it's goal. We hear from circles of the FIA that none of the four engine manufacturers has to rebuild their oil system or the turbocharger. If someone had tricked in this area, they would have had to modify the turbocharger immediately. Neither of the controls found a separate oil circuit for the turbocharger.
That article is incredibly naive. If a team is blatantly cheating or dancing around the grey areas, they are going to have a way to quickly stop doing it that doesn't severely hinder them.
Off the top of my head.
- Tell the drivers not to use a given engine mode, as that is the only mode that uses the questionable practice.
- Update the engine mappings (like they do almost every race) to stop using the questionable practice.
- Change something outside of the FIA regulated/monitored systems to stop the questionable practice. for example the size of an oil line or the flow rate or pressure of a pump.
Do you mean that teams would find a way to "hide" their trick? So by this logic an investigation by the FIA would mostly be useless as they would not find anything anyway?
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 18:44
by McHonda
saviour stivala wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 18:04
trinidefender wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 04:38
saviour stivala wrote: ↑22 May 2018, 18:07
totally out of order, totaaly Misinterpreting ERS rules and regulations, just speculating.
Maybe this will clear it up. Here is the official F1 website with the full regulations linked if you would like to read them.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... d_ERS.html
"A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).
A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.
An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."
That is a quote from the website. Is this settled now?
What is clear is the final link between electrical power and the drive train is the MGU-K and whatever is thrown at it it can only pass-on to the drive train 120kw for 33.33 seconds per lap.
Wrong. There is no 33.33s a lap limit. None.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 23 May 2018, 19:02
by dans79
LM10 wrote: ↑23 May 2018, 18:35
Do you mean that teams would find a way to "hide" their trick? So by this logic an investigation by the FIA would mostly be useless as they would not find anything anyway?
That depends on the level of checking being done. Race weekend scrutineering is not very investigative. However If someone files a formal protest, the FIA will tear your car, software, and supporting equipment apart if needed. All you have to do is look at the controversies of 94 to see how invasive the FIA can be if required.
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 10:45
by OO7
I'm not sure if this is relevant here:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on <a href="
https://t.co/8k0hAn1MQE">https://t.co/8 ... </p>— Mark Hughes (@SportmphMark) <a href="
https://twitter.com/SportmphMark/status ... %5Etfw">24 May 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 11:01
by saviour stivala
The number one British conpirascy theorist/fomentor that takes the easy way out with anybody not agreeing with him.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 24 May 2018, 11:38
by Phil
From AMuS:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... korrektur/
AMuS wrote:Ferrari teilt seinen Energiespeicher als einziges Team in zwei Hälften. Deshalb auch zwei Ausgänge. Das ist zunächst nicht strafbar, so lange nie mehr als vier Megajoule Energie pro Runde und 120 Kilowatt Leistung (163 PS) in das System eingespeist werden. Das wird mit einem von der FIA homologierten Sensor am Ausgang der Batterie gemessen. Nach einem Tipp von Mercedes ließ sich die FIA in Baku und Barcelona Leistungsdiagramme zeigen und überprüfte die Batterie. Es ging darum, dass unter bestimmten Bedingungen der Sensor so umgangen werden kann, dass er überschüssige Leistung nicht misst.
Die Konkurrenz behauptet, dass sie bei Ferrari in Baku in den Qualifikationsrunden über GPS-Messungen einen plötzlichen Leistungsanstieg von 20 PS ermittelt haben will, was in der Rundenzeit drei Zehntel gebracht haben soll. In Barcelona hätte Ferrari dagegen keinerlei Extraleistung auf den Geraden mobilisiert. Da aber waren alle im Zirkus bereits gewarnt. Die ersten Batteriechecks gab es ja bereits in Baku.
In short: Ferrari is the only team that splits its battery into two parts and therefore has 2 separate outputs. This is not against the rules, as long as not more than 4 MJ is fetched per lap and 120KW. The FIA use a homologated sensor at the output of the battery to measure this. After a tip by Mercedes, the FIA wanted to see energy diagrams in Baku and Barcelona from Ferrari to check the energy flow. The suspicion was that under certain conditions, the sensor could be bypassed.
The competition claims that GPS data showed that in qualifying in Baku, Ferrari had a burst of around 20hp and gave up to 3 tenths advantage. In Barcelona this wasn't the case anymore, probably due to the fact others were already suspicious about it.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 24 May 2018, 11:40
by F1NAC
It's worth noting that Ferrari uses this split battery design since 2014
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 12:10
by Cuky
as they said on SkyF1 FIA checked Ferrari's ERS system both at Baku and Barcelona and found nothing wrong. Some teams argued that FIA sensor can be bypassed so FIA asked Ferrari to put an additional sensor in their car just for FP1 so that they can check if everything is in order and Ferrari happily obliged stating that they have nothing to hide
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 12:19
by Just_a_fan
What if they only use the "alleged" trick in Q or the race. Potter around in FP1 with nothing for the sensor to find. Seems a bit like the FIA just want to be seen to be doing something. Either test it fully or not at all. Stick it on every car for every race. Stops others trying the same trick too.
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 12:23
by MtthsMlw
Cuky wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 12:10
as they said on SkyF1 FIA checked Ferrari's ERS system both at Baku and Barcelona and found nothing wrong. Some teams argued that FIA sensor can be bypassed so FIA asked Ferrari to put an additional sensor in their car just for FP1 so that they can check if everything is in order and Ferrari happily obliged stating that they have nothing to hide
AMuS reported that Ferrari is using a different software to enforce the limit of 4MJ and not a sensor.
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 12:52
by saviour stivala
Cuky wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 12:10
as they said on SkyF1 FIA checked Ferrari's ERS system both at Baku and Barcelona and found nothing wrong. Some teams argued that FIA sensor can be bypassed so FIA asked Ferrari to put an additional sensor in their car just for FP1 so that they can check if everything is in order and Ferrari happily obliged stating that they have nothing to hide
those at SKY including their sidekick MH are the Crème of the British fomenters/conspirators/conspiracy theorists, they comes with a pedigree certificate, they are also in a race between themselves about what they specialize at, that is conspiracy theorizing and fomenting opinions, pity those that follows them and depend on what they push out to form their own opinion. Go try disagree with what they say on their forums and experience the way they get out of an argument, that is the only way for them to thrive.
Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF71H
Posted: 24 May 2018, 12:57
by SonicBoom
MtthsMlw wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 12:23
Cuky wrote: ↑24 May 2018, 12:10
as they said on SkyF1 FIA checked Ferrari's ERS system both at Baku and Barcelona and found nothing wrong. Some teams argued that FIA sensor can be bypassed so FIA asked Ferrari to put an additional sensor in their car just for FP1 so that they can check if everything is in order and Ferrari happily obliged stating that they have nothing to hide
AMuS reported that Ferrari is using a different software to enforce the limit of 4MJ and not a sensor.
What, I don't understand this, are you saying that Ferrari is not using a sensor for monitoring their energy usage? Which would mean their essentially running open loop system in "software"?