Guys, I dont know why the arguement, it is reasonably clear the at least in the short to mid term it is going to be a mix of both, probably both in most vehicles.
When they crack fission it will be a game changer, but that is 10 years off and has been for 20 years
The discussion is mainly whether it makes sense to actively keep developing ICEs, and as such, maintain that F1 is a tech development series 'leading the pack in ICE development for sustainable fuels.'
I have absolutely no issue with biofuels, and usage thereof as a transitional fuel as long as there are legacy-ICE cars, which will be quite some time. But it doesn't make much sense to me to actively develop ICEs.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Guys, I dont know why the arguement, it is reasonably clear the at least in the short to mid term it is going to be a mix of both, probably both in most vehicles.
When they crack fission it will be a game changer, but that is 10 years off and has been for 20 years
The discussion is mainly whether it makes sense to actively keep developing ICEs, and as such, maintain that F1 is a tech development series 'leading the pack in ICE development for sustainable fuels.'
I have absolutely no issue with biofuels, and usage thereof as a transitional fuel as long as there are legacy-ICE cars, which will be quite some time. But it doesn't make much sense to me to actively develop ICEs.
I could say that depends on how far they develop ICE's without the bounds they have been set until now. but I do not want to get into an argument, being an electric car fan
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Posted: 24 Dec 2020, 20:24
by McL-H
The future of automobiles is hydrogen, not battery. I’d much rather see F1 return to V10’s. But if they think it’s not sustainable, then F1 should lead the way in hydrogen tech.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
The future of automobiles is hydrogen, not battery. I’d much rather see F1 return to V10’s. But if they think it’s not sustainable, then F1 should lead the way in hydrogen tech.
There is a good item on it here
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
"hydrogen gas has 1/3 the density of methane". I thought it was 1/9? Big difference.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Posted: 26 Dec 2020, 11:02
by Just_a_fan
Hydrogen c.0.09kg/m3
Methane c.0.7 kg/m3
So not sure where the 1/3 as dense comes from, unless they're talking compressed hydrogen.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Posted: 26 Dec 2020, 14:55
by hollus
Those are densities in the gas state, likely at 1 atmosphere? As fuels, they would (maybe) be liquified, otherwise the densities will mostly depend on the storage pressure.
Wiki gives me 70g/l for hydrogen and 423g/l for methane. It will no doubt still depend on conditions.
The 1/3 quote in the video referred to energy density, not mass density. Which only created further confusion... energy density per mass unit or per volume unit?
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Posted: 26 Dec 2020, 23:29
by gruntguru
Ah - thanks hollus. I should have replayed the video to check what he actually said.
On a mass basis hydrogen has a much higher heating value than methane - on a volume basis, lower.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Posted: 27 Dec 2020, 01:10
by RedNEO
For any concerns about scalability..
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Excellent news. 550 million litres a year by 2026. The UK used 46.5 billion litres of road vehicle fuel last year. That's just the UK.
So the Porsche plant will need to be replicated by about 100 times just to run UK road vehicles.
And that eFuel, as they call it, still causes NOx and other pollutants to be pumped out on urban streets when it is burned.
We get that you don't like batteries and want ICE to carry on forever, but the reality is that battery is a much better option in urban environments. And guess where most people live?
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Excellent news. 550 million litres a year by 2026. The UK used 46.5 billion litres of road vehicle fuel last year. That's just the UK.
So the Porsche plant will need to be replicated by about 100 times just to run UK road vehicles.
And that eFuel, as they call it, still causes NOx and other pollutants to be pumped out on urban streets when it is burned.
We get that you don't like batteries and want ICE to carry on forever, but the reality is that battery is a much better option in urban environments. And guess where most people live?
And it will be replicated so..? I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but biofuels are the rage right now.
As to your other point they already have ICE prototypes that have managed to reach absolute 0 emmissions by recombining said gases with what is basically a super cathalytic converter.
Re: Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric
Excellent news. 550 million litres a year by 2026. The UK used 46.5 billion litres of road vehicle fuel last year. That's just the UK.
So the Porsche plant will need to be replicated by about 100 times just to run UK road vehicles.
And that eFuel, as they call it, still causes NOx and other pollutants to be pumped out on urban streets when it is burned.
We get that you don't like batteries and want ICE to carry on forever, but the reality is that battery is a much better option in urban environments. And guess where most people live?
And it will be replicated so..? I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but biofuels are the rage right now.
As to your other point they already have ICE prototypes that have managed to reach absolute 0 emmissions by recombining said gases with what is basically a super cathalytic converter.
Biofuels are a developing area, yes. They won't kill off batteries, as you hope, because hybrids will still be created. BEVs will also still be created and used. There are times and places where electric drive is preferable. Hybrids also allow for regen braking etc.
Do you have a link for these zero emissions car engines?
