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Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:44
by Zynerji
hurril wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 21:20
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 20:58
hurril wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 20:27
But the VLIM:s are not opening/ closing on a per cycle basis.
Is this written somewhere in the Honda tech interviews? Or is it just more speculation presented as truth?
Have you ever heard of a VLIM even being able to do that?
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 21:03
Speculation ? Dear lord..
It's how they work. They adjust to an optimal length for any engine speed.
ROTARY-TYPE THROTTLING DEVICE FOR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
Aug 28, 2017 - HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.
A rotary-type throttling device for an internal combustion engine includes an upstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a throttle body and having an inlet port held in fluid communication with the atmosphere, and a downstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a cylindrical valve body of a rotary valve and having an outlet port open at a downstream outer circumferential surface of the cylindrical valve body. The upstream auxiliary intake passageway and the downstream auxiliary intake passageway have a body-side joint fluid communication port and a valve-side joint fluid communication port formed in respective sliding surfaces of the throttle body and the cylindrical valve body and designed to overlap each other to keep the upstream and downstream auxiliary intake passageways and in fluid communication with each other. When the rotary valve is open, a main intake air stream passing through an intake passageway in the rotary valve flows smoothly for enhanced intake performance without being disturbed by an auxiliary intake air stream flowing out of the outlet port of an auxiliary intake passage.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180080391
I'm also looking for the article where the engineer discusses how much of a mess the first VLIM system was (he specifically calls it overcomplicated, and he wasnt sure it would work), he also says that it was important to learn that they needed to close the VLIM at times during the cycle. That is what lead to my starting this thread, and I will continue to look for the other article. Something tells me its near the end of the pre-season testing thread.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:51
by 63l8qrrfy6
That is a
THROTTLE
This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is
not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:55
by johnny comelately
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 22:44
hurril wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 21:20
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 20:58
Is this written somewhere in the Honda tech interviews? Or is it just more speculation presented as truth?
Have you ever heard of a VLIM even being able to do that?
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 21:03
Speculation ? Dear lord..
It's how they work. They adjust to an optimal length for any engine speed.
ROTARY-TYPE THROTTLING DEVICE FOR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
Aug 28, 2017 - HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.
A rotary-type throttling device for an internal combustion engine includes an upstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a throttle body and having an inlet port held in fluid communication with the atmosphere, and a downstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a cylindrical valve body of a rotary valve and having an outlet port open at a downstream outer circumferential surface of the cylindrical valve body. The upstream auxiliary intake passageway and the downstream auxiliary intake passageway have a body-side joint fluid communication port and a valve-side joint fluid communication port formed in respective sliding surfaces of the throttle body and the cylindrical valve body and designed to overlap each other to keep the upstream and downstream auxiliary intake passageways and in fluid communication with each other. When the rotary valve is open, a main intake air stream passing through an intake passageway in the rotary valve flows smoothly for enhanced intake performance without being disturbed by an auxiliary intake air stream flowing out of the outlet port of an auxiliary intake passage.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180080391
I'm also looking for the article where the engineer discusses how much of a mess the first VLIM system was (he specifically calls it overcomplicated, and he wasnt sure it would work), he also says that it was important to learn that they needed to close the VLIM at times during the cycle. That is what lead to my starting this thread, and I will continue to look for the other article. Something tells me its near the end of the pre-season testing thread.
It looks like it has a throttling effect as well, that being the case it has to opened 5- 10 degrees in advance of inlet valve if it was spinning in relation to the crank, but this is linkage operated??
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:58
by vibrating_cake
So if they can close the vlim off to incoming air, they can adjust the virtual cam timing via having the longest possible highest flowing intake cam with the biggest overlap without piston contact. Then use the vlim with its ability to open and close the flow, cylinder by cylinder, couldn't that act as a virtual variable timed intake valve?
Difficult to explain. But imagine you ditch the valve, and have the intake runner able to open and close it's self to air on command. You are able to infinitely adjust the time and volume of air entering the cylinder.
Would this work as a bypass to the no variable cam timing rule?
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:01
by Zynerji
And if each intake valve has its own runner/VLIM valve, you can play all sorts of games with the timing...
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:07
by 63l8qrrfy6
Welcome to F1 mythical.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:09
by vibrating_cake
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:01
And if each intake valve has its own runner/VLIM valve, you can play all sorts of games with the timing...
Like one "valve" opening before the other to induce swirl under certain conditions, cylinder cutting etc.
Is there a rule against the vlim system reducing the volume of air entering the engine like a throttle? Or being variable diameter kind of ideas?
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:12
by Zynerji
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:07
Welcome to F1 mythical.
"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.
New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency.
Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output. so Honda adopted it without hesitation."
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:43
by 63l8qrrfy6
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:12
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:07
Welcome to F1 mythical.
"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.
New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency.
Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output. so Honda adopted it without hesitation."
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
It's not clear at all what they mean by that. To interpret it as variable valve timing or afterburner (really?) is silly.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 29 Mar 2018, 23:50
by henry
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:12
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:07
Welcome to F1 mythical.
New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency.
Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output. so Honda adopted it without hesitation."
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
Increasing the charging efficiency definitely does increase the PU output by reducing compressor work and so increasing MGU-H power.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 30 Mar 2018, 00:08
by amho
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:43
Zynerji wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:12
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 23:07
Welcome to F1 mythical.
"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.
New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency.
Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output. so Honda adopted it without hesitation."
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
It's not clear at all what they mean by that. To interpret it as variable valve timing or afterburner (really?) is silly.
Could u please explain more why do u see some afterburner theories as "silly"?
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 30 Mar 2018, 00:45
by Zynerji
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 22:51
That is a
THROTTLE
This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
http://www.racetothefinish.co.uk/media/ ... g_9111.jpg
A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is
not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
Great! Now put that in the VLIM stack close to the Intake port itself, and realize that when it is closed, but the intake valve is open, that the piston can compress the mix back into that runner, seal it by closing the intake valve, then releasing it again during the exhaust valve overlap, either flushing the cylinder with fresh air, or causing a secondary ignition if there is fuel included in the pressurized charge.
I agree with the other poster. Please explain why this is silly, or mythical, instead of just shitting all over the concept and flying away without any relevance.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 30 Mar 2018, 23:04
by 63l8qrrfy6
Zynerji wrote: ↑30 Mar 2018, 00:45
Mudflap wrote: ↑29 Mar 2018, 22:51
That is a
THROTTLE
This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
http://www.racetothefinish.co.uk/media/ ... g_9111.jpg
A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is
not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
Great! Now put that in the VLIM stack close to the Intake port itself, and realize that when it is closed, but the intake valve is open, that the piston can compress the mix back into that runner, seal it by closing the intake valve, then releasing it again during the exhaust valve overlap, either flushing the cylinder with fresh air, or causing a secondary ignition if there is fuel included in the pressurized charge.
I agree with the other poster. Please explain why this is silly, or mythical, instead of just shitting all over the concept and flying away without any relevance.
First of all you came up with this complete bananas theory and the only benefit that you have pointed out is that it can potentially help spool up the turbo ? Must be of great help when the turbo has a freaking electric motor attached to it which is meant to do exactly that but much more efficiently than burning fuel somewhere in the exhaust port.
Let's assume for a second that Honda are completely bonkers and somehow designed this insane system than can actuate each individual trumpet 125 times per second (does sound crazy when you spell it out right?).
You are proposing that the VLIM blocks the flow and the piston actually pumps the charge back through the inlet valves. This is effectively reducing the compression ratio and increases the pumping losses. At the same time you aren't getting the benefits of the VLIM (it's closed, so no pulse reflections) so you also lose volumetric efficiency.
Then it gets even crazier - you somehow burn the stored charge during exhaust (at an extremely low efficiency, unless you propose that they also have a combustor somewhere in there) for the sole purpose of spooling up the turbo.
How does this make any sense at all ?
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 31 Mar 2018, 01:08
by godlameroso
Harvesting probably, the batteries don't have unlimited energy for the MGU-H, you can get 2 and a bit from the MGU-K, the rest has to come from the MGU-H directly.
Can't knock people for having bananas theories, if he had the resources he'd test it, but if he never is allowed to think about these things because of people who "know better" then nothing will advance, everyone will be stuck in the status quo.
Re: Honda Cackle theory
Posted: 31 Mar 2018, 02:01
by Maritimer
Sounds a bit like the modified cycle Toyota and Mazda have used in some engines, they call it the Atkinson cycle although that's really a whole different engine design. Pump some of the charge back out so you get complete gas expansion in the cylinder which is supposed to be more efficient.