Honda Cackle theory

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Zynerji
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Zynerji » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:44 pm

hurril wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:20 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:58 pm
hurril wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:27 pm


But the VLIM:s are not opening/ closing on a per cycle basis.
Is this written somewhere in the Honda tech interviews? Or is it just more speculation presented as truth?
Have you ever heard of a VLIM even being able to do that?
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:03 pm
Speculation ? Dear lord..
It's how they work. They adjust to an optimal length for any engine speed.
ROTARY-TYPE THROTTLING DEVICE FOR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
Aug 28, 2017 - HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.
A rotary-type throttling device for an internal combustion engine includes an upstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a throttle body and having an inlet port held in fluid communication with the atmosphere, and a downstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a cylindrical valve body of a rotary valve and having an outlet port open at a downstream outer circumferential surface of the cylindrical valve body. The upstream auxiliary intake passageway and the downstream auxiliary intake passageway have a body-side joint fluid communication port and a valve-side joint fluid communication port formed in respective sliding surfaces of the throttle body and the cylindrical valve body and designed to overlap each other to keep the upstream and downstream auxiliary intake passageways and in fluid communication with each other. When the rotary valve is open, a main intake air stream passing through an intake passageway in the rotary valve flows smoothly for enhanced intake performance without being disturbed by an auxiliary intake air stream flowing out of the outlet port of an auxiliary intake passage.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180080391

I'm also looking for the article where the engineer discusses how much of a mess the first VLIM system was (he specifically calls it overcomplicated, and he wasnt sure it would work), he also says that it was important to learn that they needed to close the VLIM at times during the cycle. That is what lead to my starting this thread, and I will continue to look for the other article. Something tells me its near the end of the pre-season testing thread.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Mudflap » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:51 pm

That is a THROTTLE

This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
Image

A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
How much TQ does it make though?

johnny comelately
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by johnny comelately » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:55 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:44 pm
hurril wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:20 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:58 pm


Is this written somewhere in the Honda tech interviews? Or is it just more speculation presented as truth?
Have you ever heard of a VLIM even being able to do that?
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:03 pm
Speculation ? Dear lord..
It's how they work. They adjust to an optimal length for any engine speed.
ROTARY-TYPE THROTTLING DEVICE FOR INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
Aug 28, 2017 - HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.
A rotary-type throttling device for an internal combustion engine includes an upstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a throttle body and having an inlet port held in fluid communication with the atmosphere, and a downstream auxiliary intake passageway formed in a cylindrical valve body of a rotary valve and having an outlet port open at a downstream outer circumferential surface of the cylindrical valve body. The upstream auxiliary intake passageway and the downstream auxiliary intake passageway have a body-side joint fluid communication port and a valve-side joint fluid communication port formed in respective sliding surfaces of the throttle body and the cylindrical valve body and designed to overlap each other to keep the upstream and downstream auxiliary intake passageways and in fluid communication with each other. When the rotary valve is open, a main intake air stream passing through an intake passageway in the rotary valve flows smoothly for enhanced intake performance without being disturbed by an auxiliary intake air stream flowing out of the outlet port of an auxiliary intake passage.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180080391

I'm also looking for the article where the engineer discusses how much of a mess the first VLIM system was (he specifically calls it overcomplicated, and he wasnt sure it would work), he also says that it was important to learn that they needed to close the VLIM at times during the cycle. That is what lead to my starting this thread, and I will continue to look for the other article. Something tells me its near the end of the pre-season testing thread.
It looks like it has a throttling effect as well, that being the case it has to opened 5- 10 degrees in advance of inlet valve if it was spinning in relation to the crank, but this is linkage operated??

vibrating_cake
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by vibrating_cake » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:58 pm

So if they can close the vlim off to incoming air, they can adjust the virtual cam timing via having the longest possible highest flowing intake cam with the biggest overlap without piston contact. Then use the vlim with its ability to open and close the flow, cylinder by cylinder, couldn't that act as a virtual variable timed intake valve?

Difficult to explain. But imagine you ditch the valve, and have the intake runner able to open and close it's self to air on command. You are able to infinitely adjust the time and volume of air entering the cylinder.
Would this work as a bypass to the no variable cam timing rule?

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Zynerji » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:01 pm

And if each intake valve has its own runner/VLIM valve, you can play all sorts of games with the timing...

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Mudflap » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 pm

Welcome to F1 mythical.
How much TQ does it make though?

vibrating_cake
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by vibrating_cake » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:09 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:01 pm
And if each intake valve has its own runner/VLIM valve, you can play all sorts of games with the timing...
Like one "valve" opening before the other to induce swirl under certain conditions, cylinder cutting etc.

Is there a rule against the vlim system reducing the volume of air entering the engine like a throttle? Or being variable diameter kind of ideas?

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Zynerji » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:12 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Welcome to F1 mythical.

"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.

New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency. Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output.
so Honda adopted it without hesitation."

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Mudflap » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:43 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:12 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Welcome to F1 mythical.

"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.

New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency. Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output.
so Honda adopted it without hesitation."

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
It's not clear at all what they mean by that. To interpret it as variable valve timing or afterburner (really?) is silly.
How much TQ does it make though?

henry
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by henry » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:50 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:12 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Welcome to F1 mythical.
New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency. Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output.
so Honda adopted it without hesitation."

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
Increasing the charging efficiency definitely does increase the PU output by reducing compressor work and so increasing MGU-H power.
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amho
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by amho » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:08 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:43 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:12 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 pm
Welcome to F1 mythical.

"Because the turbocharger was inside the V-bank. the induction system was oriented quite forcefully. When I first saw this I couldn't help but wonder. 'will this really work?' We were starting with a fresh mindset. but that resulted in us being unable to overcome reliability and performance hurdles.

New regulations in 2015 allowed for variable intake systems. Such systems are usually used to change the stroke of the intake funnel. increasing the charging efficiency. Combined with a turbocharged engine, simply increasing the charging efficiency does not necessarily increase output, so the system is sometimes manipulated to shut out air.
Either way. variable intake technology leads to an increase in output.
so Honda adopted it without hesitation."

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... h=d3ef5235
It's not clear at all what they mean by that. To interpret it as variable valve timing or afterburner (really?) is silly.
Could u please explain more why do u see some afterburner theories as "silly"?
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

Zynerji
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Zynerji » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:45 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:51 pm
That is a THROTTLE

This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
http://www.racetothefinish.co.uk/media/ ... g_9111.jpg

A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
Great! Now put that in the VLIM stack close to the Intake port itself, and realize that when it is closed, but the intake valve is open, that the piston can compress the mix back into that runner, seal it by closing the intake valve, then releasing it again during the exhaust valve overlap, either flushing the cylinder with fresh air, or causing a secondary ignition if there is fuel included in the pressurized charge.

I agree with the other poster. Please explain why this is silly, or mythical, instead of just shitting all over the concept and flying away without any relevance.

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Mudflap » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:04 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:45 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:51 pm
That is a THROTTLE

This is what they use in F1 for throttles - similar to that patent:
http://www.racetothefinish.co.uk/media/ ... g_9111.jpg

A VLIM is a device that changes the effective length of the runner so that the resonating frequency of the pipe is tuned at any engine speed. A VLIM is not a throttle. Do you understand this ??
Great! Now put that in the VLIM stack close to the Intake port itself, and realize that when it is closed, but the intake valve is open, that the piston can compress the mix back into that runner, seal it by closing the intake valve, then releasing it again during the exhaust valve overlap, either flushing the cylinder with fresh air, or causing a secondary ignition if there is fuel included in the pressurized charge.

I agree with the other poster. Please explain why this is silly, or mythical, instead of just shitting all over the concept and flying away without any relevance.
First of all you came up with this complete bananas theory and the only benefit that you have pointed out is that it can potentially help spool up the turbo ? Must be of great help when the turbo has a freaking electric motor attached to it which is meant to do exactly that but much more efficiently than burning fuel somewhere in the exhaust port.

Let's assume for a second that Honda are completely bonkers and somehow designed this insane system than can actuate each individual trumpet 125 times per second (does sound crazy when you spell it out right?).
You are proposing that the VLIM blocks the flow and the piston actually pumps the charge back through the inlet valves. This is effectively reducing the compression ratio and increases the pumping losses. At the same time you aren't getting the benefits of the VLIM (it's closed, so no pulse reflections) so you also lose volumetric efficiency.
Then it gets even crazier - you somehow burn the stored charge during exhaust (at an extremely low efficiency, unless you propose that they also have a combustor somewhere in there) for the sole purpose of spooling up the turbo.

How does this make any sense at all ?
How much TQ does it make though?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by godlameroso » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:08 am

Harvesting probably, the batteries don't have unlimited energy for the MGU-H, you can get 2 and a bit from the MGU-K, the rest has to come from the MGU-H directly.

Can't knock people for having bananas theories, if he had the resources he'd test it, but if he never is allowed to think about these things because of people who "know better" then nothing will advance, everyone will be stuck in the status quo.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Maritimer
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Re: Honda Cackle theory

Post by Maritimer » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:01 am

Sounds a bit like the modified cycle Toyota and Mazda have used in some engines, they call it the Atkinson cycle although that's really a whole different engine design. Pump some of the charge back out so you get complete gas expansion in the cylinder which is supposed to be more efficient.