We do not live in an ideal world, ideals rarely match with reality.
As of ~2018 fuel consumption hasn't been much of an issue. Meaning no one is saving fuel to make it to the end of the race. In fact most teams have found that it is faster to race with a full tank, than it is to fuel to simply complete the number of laps. Have you noticed no one complaining about having to save fuel?
Having very efficient ICE makes the sacrifice even easier.
Storing electrical energy is such a priority that additional fuel will be sacrificed for it, it is an easy sacrifice to make considering the lap time benefits.
Remember that the K works in both positive and negative torque. That along with the drive by wire diff brake and engine settings opens up unenforceable opportunities for clever people.
Maximizing the energy of the tires after all is the name of the game, and one the biggest gains from maximizing tire energy comes in the corners.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 01 Oct 2020, 23:41
by gruntguru
@Craigy & godlameroso. I appreciate all those points - that's why I said "in an ideal world".
There is another factor following on from godlameroso's post. The race fuel allocation is ample at most tracks (it wouldn't be ample if the flow rate was unlimited). There is a small benefit in starting with less-than-full tanks. There is a bigger benefit in being able to use more of the fuel allocation - effectively. This is another reason to use inefficient strategies like electric supercharger and "retarded timing exhaust harvest".
Worth remembering - over the course of the race:
Total drivetrain energy to the tyres = (Total fuel energy burned x average PU conversion efficiency) + (Braking energy harvested x recycling efficiency).
@Craigy & godlameroso. I appreciate all those points - that's why I said "in an ideal world".
There is another factor following on from godlameroso's post. The race fuel allocation is ample at most tracks (it wouldn't be ample if the flow rate was unlimited). There is a small benefit in starting with less-than-full tanks. There is a bigger benefit in being able to use more of the fuel allocation - effectively. This is another reason to use inefficient strategies like electric supercharger and "retarded timing exhaust harvest".
Worth remembering - over the course of the race:
Total drivetrain energy to the tyres = (Total fuel energy burned x average PU conversion efficiency) + (Braking energy harvested x recycling efficiency).
On the same lines of this, there was a hinted at theory going around that Honda (because of the use cylinder cutting often and aggressively) were at the point that they could use excess fuel and dump it into cylinders that are not currently firing which would combust in the exhaust and drive the turbine which would either keep the turbo on song without MGU-H intervention OR have the MGU-H in generator mode and this would boost electrical generation. Obviously this behaviour is prevalent while cornering for the extra saved energy to be used elsewhere.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Oct 2020, 03:33
by gruntguru
Sounds a bit erratic and infrequent to be of much use. If it sounded like a machine gun I would be convinced.
@Craigy & godlameroso. I appreciate all those points - that's why I said "in an ideal world".
There is another factor following on from godlameroso's post. The race fuel allocation is ample at most tracks (it wouldn't be ample if the flow rate was unlimited). There is a small benefit in starting with less-than-full tanks. There is a bigger benefit in being able to use more of the fuel allocation - effectively. This is another reason to use inefficient strategies like electric supercharger and "retarded timing exhaust harvest".
Worth remembering - over the course of the race:
Total drivetrain energy to the tyres = (Total fuel energy burned x average PU conversion efficiency) + (Braking energy harvested x recycling efficiency).
On the same lines of this, there was a hinted at theory going around that Honda (because of the use cylinder cutting often and aggressively) were at the point that they could use excess fuel and dump it into cylinders that are not currently firing which would combust in the exhaust and drive the turbine which would either keep the turbo on song without MGU-H intervention OR have the MGU-H in generator mode and this would boost electrical generation. Obviously this behaviour is prevalent while cornering for the extra saved energy to be used elsewhere.
This is a very exciting and dramatic. But not desireable in this formula. Fuel is liquid gold. High quality energy that must be burned to extract every Joule. Why dump it into a low efficiency process?
Remember.. The turbine is not designed as a combustion chamber. There is no containment or flame holding or mixing.. You know what that means.. Giant flames and black smoke shooting out the back (watch 1980's F1 when they ran rich in qualifying!) .. We don't see this today.
It is not effective at low turbine rpm to harvest
either. Best to harvest with MGUH at high rpm as the MGUH voltage is higher and there are less electrical losses.
Think about this scenario...
Braking into corners... Engine power goes down, turbine speed goes down... You are charging at near max current with MGUK. And you can afford to charge using MGUH as compressor flow is now restricted anyway.
Why the mad rush now to dump fuel into the exhaust? I think dumping fuel is not productive when you have free air from the engine as an air pump as it decelerates.
Also explosions inside the turbine is also bad for the life of the turbo charger. The blades have to be loaded against the explosions.
I don't think this is happening.
Very likely it could be cylinder cutting and thus a mix cold blowing on the unfired cylinders. The throttle opening is the same for all cylinders i believe. You can't lock the unfrmired cylinders; they will be pumping air. And this is the sound of that I think.
@Craigy & godlameroso. I appreciate all those points - that's why I said "in an ideal world".
There is another factor following on from godlameroso's post. The race fuel allocation is ample at most tracks (it wouldn't be ample if the flow rate was unlimited). There is a small benefit in starting with less-than-full tanks. There is a bigger benefit in being able to use more of the fuel allocation - effectively. This is another reason to use inefficient strategies like electric supercharger and "retarded timing exhaust harvest".
Worth remembering - over the course of the race:
Total drivetrain energy to the tyres = (Total fuel energy burned x average PU conversion efficiency) + (Braking energy harvested x recycling efficiency).
On the same lines of this, there was a hinted at theory going around that Honda (because of the use cylinder cutting often and aggressively) were at the point that they could use excess fuel and dump it into cylinders that are not currently firing which would combust in the exhaust and drive the turbine which would either keep the turbo on song without MGU-H intervention OR have the MGU-H in generator mode and this would boost electrical generation. Obviously this behaviour is prevalent while cornering for the extra saved energy to be used elsewhere.
This is a very exciting and dramatic. But not desireable in this formula. Fuel is liquid gold. High quality energy that must be burned to extract every Joule. Why dump it into a low efficiency process?
Remember.. The turbine is not designed as a combustion chamber. There is no containment or flame holding or mixing.. You know what that means.. Giant flames and black smoke shooting out the back (watch 1980's F1 when they ran rich in qualifying!) .. We don't see this today.
It is not effective at low turbine rpm to harvest
either. Best to harvest with MGUH at high rpm as the MGUH voltage is higher and there are less electrical losses.
Think about this scenario...
Braking into corners... Engine power goes down, turbine speed goes down... You are charging at near max current with MGUK. And you can afford to charge using MGUH as compressor flow is now restricted anyway.
Why the mad rush now to dump fuel into the exhaust? I think dumping fuel is not productive when you have free air from the engine as an air pump as it decelerates.
Also explosions inside the turbine is also bad for the life of the turbo charger. The blades have to be loaded against the explosions.
I don't think this is happening.
Very likely it could be cylinder cutting and thus a mix cold blowing on the unfired cylinders. The throttle opening is the same for all cylinders i believe. You can't lock the unfrmired cylinders; they will be pumping air. And this is the sound of that I think.
Do you know design of honda mgu-h/turbo? Maybe it contains some kind of compression area or hotter part where they want to burn fuel, to combust fuel reached there unburned
I also think that can be used. If this peak tech of motorsport... why you give up from extra regenaration by saying "mgu-k is already generating it is enough for me". When they send a bit fuel into exhaust to burn it there or burn fuel in the chamber just before the openening exhaust valves, it must not be that big combustion to shorten exhaust and turbo parts life dramaticaly. Planned obsolescence
They are making tests and test for these kind of things. If this give them to get better generation I believe they (4 pu manufacturer too) will use it.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Oct 2020, 08:56
by saviour stivala
Honda’s turbine could not help the MGU-H so MGU-H could not help ES when most needed such as at Sochi’s 1073m long flat-out straight section.
BREAKING: Honda announces it is quitting Formula 1 at the end of 2021 #F1
Holy S#it
It was rumored that this might happen but I thought HONDA will remain, this is a huge blow for F1,
Red Bull & AT back to Renault?
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Oct 2020, 10:13
by bigblue
Ah crap. Beyond disappointing.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Oct 2020, 10:18
by MtthsMlw
Really disappointing. Out of nowhere.
RB & AT back to Renault..
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Oct 2020, 10:19
by tangodjango
Terrible news. Over complicated regs. Totally unecessary MGU-H. Letting teams lobby and fix rules. This has been a diasaster. Can't see any new manufacturers in the near future.
