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I have probably missed this.

But is the general idea that Ferrari can deploy a higher output, or that they can just deploy for longer?

If it’s deploy for longer, can they do this lap after lap, or does it take extra time to build it up? - for example they need half a lap of extra harvesting to then do a full lap with longer deploy than rivals.

djones wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 09:51

I have probably missed this.

But is the general idea that Ferrari can deploy a higher output, or that they can just deploy for longer?

If it’s deploy for longer, can they do this lap after lap, or does it take extra time to build it up? - for example they need half a lap of extra harvesting to then do a full lap with longer deploy than rivals.

In my opinion only. The difference I could see in maximum power output between the Mercedes and FERRARI power units during qualifying is very small indeed. But the difference during a race is big indeed. That leads me to believe that FERRARI can deploy/make use of qualifying mode during the race while Mercedes cannot, or FERRARI can use qualifying mode during the race much, much more than Mercedes can.

Do we know if full 4MJ per lap can be consistently stored/used to /form ES?
If yes, then they should be able to do it lap after lap.
Otherwise - they'll need to go around the rule about no more than 4MJ per lap

restless wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 10:50

Do we know if full 4MJ per lap can be consistently stored/used to /form ES?
If yes, then they should be able to do it lap after lap.
Otherwise - they'll need to go around the rule about no more than 4MJ per lap

some of those that matter in F1 was saying that the top/best MGU-H can contribut 60% of the ES needs.

@Restless:
The 4MJ limit is only a state-of-charge-difference limit. Basically 4MJ between the max state of charge and the min state of charge. One could in principle store or use more than 4MJ as long as one plays ping-pong between those max and min states of charge of the ES.

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 22:48

hurril wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 22:23

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 13:09

"Throw away as much energy using the brakes?"

Yes. Braked away energy is wasted energy and that matters in an energy limited formula.

Yes it is when harvested by burning fuel, but not when harvested under braking alone, and ditto when the K harvests in any other mode other than when braking.

When is speed ever achieved without using fuel?

hollus wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 12:27

@Restless:
The 4MJ limit is only a state-of-charge-difference limit. Basically 4MJ between the max state of charge and the min state of charge. One could in principle store or use more than 4MJ as long as one plays ping-pong between those max and min states of charge of the ES.

Sure, what I meant is that storing in 1 lap to use in another has negatives and has limits. The best way will be to balance and use the extra harvest in every lap

hurril wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 12:29

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 22:48

hurril wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 22:23

Yes. Braked away energy is wasted energy and that matters in an energy limited formula.

Yes it is when harvested by burning fuel, but not when harvested under braking alone, and ditto when the K harvests in any other mode other than when braking.

When is speed ever achieved without using fuel?

yes speed is only achieved by using fuel, and I don't see anybody can contest that, but a lap also consists of braking points and that is where harvesting energy by the K that would otherwise goes to waste will benefit the efficiency of the power unit.

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 13:19

hurril wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 12:29

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 22:48

Yes it is when harvested by burning fuel, but not when harvested under braking alone, and ditto when the K harvests in any other mode other than when braking.

When is speed ever achieved without using fuel?

yes speed is only achieved by using fuel, and I don't see anybody can contest that, but a lap also consists of braking points and that is where harvesting energy by the K that would otherwise goes to waste will benefit the efficiency of the power unit.

You seem to be countering a point which you don't understand to begin with. Henry stated that lifting and coasting was not going to work because using the K without putting fuel in won't work.

My counter to that is that _you are_ in fact using fuel because that was what accelerated the car in the first place. Instead of throwing that energy away to friction (using the brakes), engage the K 0,5-2s before hitting the brakes in order for some of that energy to be recovered. Lifting also means that that is 0,5-2s without using fuel. Both of these things save fuel.

Now, lifting and coasting is also slower than not doing it so this particular tactic will have to fit with the overall strategy in that point in the race.

Apologies to @philm and @hurril. I see now where I am mistaken. There is a case in which you can’t use the K but otherwise it’s the sensible thing to do. I have in the past argued that you would shift energy from high speed deployment to low speed, so I don’t know how I can have reasonably argued something else.

The case where you can’t use the K is the obvious one where you have already used all of the 2MJ/lap allowance. Or to be pedantic when at some point in the lap braking energy capture would put you over the limit.

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 07:03

henry wrote: ↑

03 Aug 2018, 23:00

PhillipM wrote: ↑

03 Aug 2018, 19:41

You'd use more fuel lifting off earlier and not recovering than you would lifting off later, recovering, and then using that energy out of the next corner with the engine in a lower mode.

If you don’t have enough fuel you can’t use the K to slow you because you would need to keep the throttle open a little longer to arrive at the end of the straight, braking point, at the same time as lift and coast. On the next straight you might well be able to use the K a little longer, but you still have a deficit.

The K allows you to save energy in one place and deploy it later. But if you don’t have the energy to save you don’t have it to deploy later.

Producing energy by burning fuel so as to be able to harvest it is legal and still done under braking (using the brake pedal and throttle together) it is mostly resorted too by those whose MGU-H/TURBO combination is incapable of harvesting at least 50% of ES needs. From what was being said by people that matters, the top/best MGU-H/TURBO combinations can harvest at least a minimum of 60% of ES needs over a lap.

I’m sorry. I can’t understand the point you are making. I am not aware of any “needs” the ES has. Can you explain? 50% or 60% of what measure?

henry wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 16:53

The case where you can’t use the K is the obvious one where you have already used all of the 2MJ/lap allowance. Or to be pedantic when at some point in the lap braking energy capture would put you over the limit.

Given the article published by the Honda engineers, wouldn't their solution counter that situation as well? I.e. harvest with MGU-K, redirect to MGU-H, which essentially puts that energy into that turbo, harvests it and redirects it to the ES as part of the unlimited MGU-H to ES energy flow.

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 18:23

henry wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 16:53

The case where you can’t use the K is the obvious one where you have already used all of the 2MJ/lap allowance. Or to be pedantic when at some point in the lap braking energy capture would put you over the limit.

Given the article published by the Honda engineers, wouldn't their solution counter that situation as well? I.e. harvest with MGU-K, redirect to MGU-H, which essentially puts that energy into that turbo, harvests it and redirects it to the ES as part of the unlimited MGU-H to ES energy flow.

Actually yes it would. It would be at a lower rate than 120kW, but it could still be done.

Thanks for the correction.

henry wrote: ↑

05 Aug 2018, 17:05

saviour stivala wrote: ↑

04 Aug 2018, 07:03

henry wrote: ↑

03 Aug 2018, 23:00

If you don’t have enough fuel you can’t use the K to slow you because you would need to keep the throttle open a little longer to arrive at the end of the straight, braking point, at the same time as lift and coast. On the next straight you might well be able to use the K a little longer, but you still have a deficit.

The K allows you to save energy in one place and deploy it later. But if you don’t have the energy to save you don’t have it to deploy later.

Producing energy by burning fuel so as to be able to harvest it is legal and still done under braking (using the brake pedal and throttle together) it is mostly resorted too by those whose MGU-H/TURBO combination is incapable of harvesting at least 50% of ES needs. From what was being said by people that matters, the top/best MGU-H/TURBO combinations can harvest at least a minimum of 60% of ES needs over a lap.

I’m sorry. I can’t understand the point you are making. I am not aware of any “needs” the ES has. Can you explain? 50% or 60% of what measure?

The “needs” of the ES are 4MJ charge. K to ES is max of 2MJ. So K provided it can fulfil its full obligations to ES it can only supply 50% of ES “needs”.

Here's a (crazy, wild?) punt at what the Ferrari trick might be.

Is the gearbox mandatory on an F1 car, or is it just a nice to have? In any event, the MGU-K offers a way for a car to run without (or with minimal use) of the gearbox. Perhaps Ferrari is simply disconnecting the main friction iducing parts of the power train; transmission, drive shafts, differentials etc, by replacing them with the MGU-H (to generate electrical power) and the MGU-K to drive the wheels.

The pathway between MGU-H and MGU-K is unlimited.

The second battery might be an ultracapacitor that can be used for acceleration and can be recharged under braking, or by other means available to the ERS. It can be argued (with dubious merit) that an ultracapacitor is not a battery, but part of the MGU-K's electronics; even if the system has to treat it as second battery, because it is a store/source of electrical energy.

Such a system would enable an F1 car to deploy electrical power across the entire lap, with increased power and improved accelleration thats outside the envelope of normal systems.

Other benefits of running this way could include fewer moving parts under stress, reduced weight, longer gearbox life due to reduced use, drive train weight savings; and depending on the way power is delivered to the wheels, improved tyre life.