Page 206 of 431
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 01 Jan 2019, 02:41
by godlameroso
gruntguru wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:20
godlameroso wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:10
MarcJ wrote: ↑31 Dec 2018, 17:49
Please explain where in the regulations it says 'per lap'.
Adherence to conventions in describing rules is important.
Contravention of ES SoC not exceed 4mj anytime while on track.
DoD depth of discharge will never go beyond 60% for heat and internal resistance reasons.
Similarly charging above a SoC of 80% isn't productive, charge discharge efficiency.
https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg
Really? How are you going to rationalize that it's not per lap with that staring you in the face? The picture clearly says Max 4MJ from ES to MGU-K per lap. The energy going to the MGU-H doesn't count against this 4MJ amount.
The two regulations you have circled have nothing to do with SOC. People are contradicting you because you mention SOC and "per lap" in the same sentence.
SOC of the physical battery can't vary more than 4MJ, that we all agree on(the actual battery capacity is still over 4MJ). Another SOC which counts energy deployed to the MGU-K cannot exceed 4MJ per lap, what I have circled.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 01 Jan 2019, 11:25
by ian_s
godlameroso wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:41
gruntguru wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:20
godlameroso wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:10
https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg
Really? How are you going to rationalize that it's not per lap with that staring you in the face? The picture clearly says Max 4MJ from ES to MGU-K per lap. The energy going to the MGU-H doesn't count against this 4MJ amount.
The two regulations you have circled have nothing to do with SOC. People are contradicting you because you mention SOC and "per lap" in the same sentence.
SOC of the physical battery can't vary more than 4MJ, that we all agree on(the actual battery capacity is still over 4MJ). Another SOC which counts energy deployed to the MGU-K cannot exceed 4MJ per lap, what I have circled.
the per lap 4MJ is not a state of charge though, its a fixed total amount. the state of charge can go up and down as much as you like, so long as it stays in the right window.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 01 Jan 2019, 23:53
by PlatinumZealot
If one assumes the batteries capacity is proportional to the weight, sure they must be an optimisation on the depth of discharge vesus the trade off in internal resistance? (that is carry a lighter battery for slighlty less efficient usage)
??
I know the battery minimal weight is limited to 25kg but..
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 00:00
by GrandAxe
ian_s wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 11:25
godlameroso wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:41
gruntguru wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:20
The two regulations you have circled have nothing to do with SOC. People are contradicting you because you mention SOC and "per lap" in the same sentence.
SOC of the physical battery can't vary more than 4MJ, that we all agree on(the actual battery capacity is still over 4MJ). Another SOC which counts energy deployed to the MGU-K cannot exceed 4MJ per lap, what I have circled.
the per lap 4MJ is not a state of charge though, its a fixed total amount. the state of charge can go up and down as much as you like, so long as it stays in the right window.
Precisely. You can store as many Coulombs as can be held, it is only the flow of Coulombs (energy) that is limited. The Coulomb is a mass analogue, while Voltage (potential difference) is a velocity analogue; so as long as there is no voltage, you can simply stack "masses" (Coulombs) without breaking any rules, and then release them at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ per lap. This is an open loophole that allows for more energy to be harvested and stored than a surface interpretation of the rules allow.
Taking the mass analogue further, it should also be possible to store physical mass (as compressed air for instance) without breaking any rules. Then the resulting pressure (potential) can be released at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ around the lap.
Of course, there might be other mass analog and energy stores, so the above system alone is unlikely to use up the entire 4MJ allowance.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 11:26
by henry
GrandAxe wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 00:00
ian_s wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 11:25
godlameroso wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:41
SOC of the physical battery can't vary more than 4MJ, that we all agree on(the actual battery capacity is still over 4MJ). Another SOC which counts energy deployed to the MGU-K cannot exceed 4MJ per lap, what I have circled.
the per lap 4MJ is not a state of charge though, its a fixed total amount. the state of charge can go up and down as much as you like, so long as it stays in the right window.
Precisely. You can store as many Coulombs as can be held,
it is only the flow of Coulombs (energy) that is limited. The Coulomb is a mass analogue, while Voltage (potential difference) is a velocity analogue; so as long as there is no voltage, you can simply stack "masses" (Coulombs) without breaking any rules, and then release them at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ per lap. This is an open loophole that allows for more energy to be harvested and stored than a surface interpretation of the rules allow.
Taking the mass analogue further, it should also be possible to store physical mass (as compressed air for instance) without breaking any rules. Then the resulting pressure (potential) can be released at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ around the lap.
Of course, there might be other mass analog and energy stores, so the above system alone is unlikely to use up the entire 4MJ allowance.
The bolded section is not correct. As well as the energy flows the regulations also control the stored quantity, the State Of Charge.
The reason this is controlled in the way it is, as a “time on the track” limit, is to prevent the build up of stored energy in the way you describe.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 11:54
by henry
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 23:53
If one assumes the batteries capacity is proportional to the weight, sure they must be an optimisation on the depth of discharge vesus the trade off in internal resistance? (that is carry a lighter battery for slighlty less efficient usage)
??
I know the battery minimal weight is limited to 25kg but..
The relevant regulation is:
5.4.3 The total weight of the part of the ES that stores energy, i.e. the cells (including any clamping plates) and electrical connections between cells, must be no less than 20kg and must not exceed 25kg.
You are right, there will be a trade off. Somebody would need to assess whether having an extra 20% physical SOC is worth more than 5kg of ballast, assuming they can make the weight limit. They would need to include cooling requirements, a larger battery may, or may not, require less cooling, packaging, albeit the ES volume is regulated and probably others.
These sort of decisions have to be taken very early because they affect the design of the safety cell.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 20:27
by PhillipM
If anything a larger battery should require less cooling, but how the cooling hardware scales is another matter.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 21:13
by PlatinumZealot
Things would get very interesting in this area if the battery weight limit is dropped.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 21:25
by henry
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 21:13
Things would get very interesting in this area if the battery weight limit is dropped.
For those that engineer the cars I’m sure there would be lots of interest. For the rest of us, we know so little now I’m not sure we’d have much to discuss when something changes.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 00:58
by GrandAxe
henry wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 11:26
GrandAxe wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 00:00
ian_s wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 11:25
the per lap 4MJ is not a state of charge though, its a fixed total amount. the state of charge can go up and down as much as you like, so long as it stays in the right window.
Precisely. You can store as many Coulombs as can be held,
it is only the flow of Coulombs (energy) that is limited. The Coulomb is a mass analogue, while Voltage (potential difference) is a velocity analogue; so as long as there is no voltage, you can simply stack "masses" (Coulombs) without breaking any rules, and then release them at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ per lap. This is an open loophole that allows for more energy to be harvested and stored than a surface interpretation of the rules allow.
Taking the mass analogue further, it should also be possible to store physical mass (as compressed air for instance) without breaking any rules. Then the resulting pressure (potential) can be released at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ around the lap.
Of course, there might be other mass analog and energy stores, so the above system alone is unlikely to use up the entire 4MJ allowance.
The bolded section is not correct. As well as the energy flows the regulations also control the stored quantity, the State Of Charge.
The reason this is controlled in the way it is, as a “time on the track” limit, is to prevent the build up of stored energy in the way you describe.
No, its a loophole given the following:
(a) charge is only mentioned on the flow diagram as being limited to 4MJ stored in the ERS, however as I mentioned, charge is not an energy analogue so cannot be measured in energy units - therefore, the only logical conclusion is that
any quantity of charge can be stored, but it must not be drawn at a greater voltage than would be allowed by the energy equation,
where C is Coulombs and V is voltage;
(b) further, the "state of charge limits" mentioned in 5.2.2 is wholly undefined, thus is open to biased interpretation;
(c) the only other areas where charge can be regulated are those which mention power limits (the limits, max+/-120KW limit between MGU-K and engine, as well as the 2KW for non-ERS stores); however both these limits do not affect the interpretation in (a). Indeed, similar to (a), it also allows for any quantity of charge to be stored in the non-ERS stores so long as it is drawn at a voltage and for a length of time that keep power output at or below 2KW.
I've included a quote of 5.2.2 and the energy flow diagram below for quick reference.
5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
courtesy thekneeslider.com
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 01:33
by Tommy Cookers
state of charge is engineering shorthand
as such it is doesn't depend for its legitimacy on a scientifically rigorous position on the nature of charge
do Coulombs even exist ? - or are they a property within a system ?
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 02:29
by gruntguru
GrandAxe wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 00:58
henry wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 11:26
GrandAxe wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 00:00
Precisely. You can store as many Coulombs as can be held,
it is only the flow of Coulombs (energy) that is limited. The Coulomb is a mass analogue, while Voltage (potential difference) is a velocity analogue; so as long as there is no voltage, you can simply stack "masses" (Coulombs) without breaking any rules, and then release them at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ per lap. This is an open loophole that allows for more energy to be harvested and stored than a surface interpretation of the rules allow.
Taking the mass analogue further, it should also be possible to store physical mass (as compressed air for instance) without breaking any rules. Then the resulting pressure (potential) can be released at a steady 4MJ or peak 4MJ around the lap.
Of course, there might be other mass analog and energy stores, so the above system alone is unlikely to use up the entire 4MJ allowance.
The bolded section is not correct. As well as the energy flows the regulations also control the stored quantity, the State Of Charge.
The reason this is controlled in the way it is, as a “time on the track” limit, is to prevent the build up of stored energy in the way you describe.
No, its a loophole given the following:
(a) charge is only mentioned on the flow diagram as being limited to 4MJ stored in the ERS, however as I mentioned, charge is not an energy analogue so cannot be measured in energy units - therefore, the only logical conclusion is that
any quantity of charge can be stored, but it must not be drawn at a greater voltage than would be allowed by the energy equation,
where C is Coulombs and V is voltage;
(b) further, the "state of charge limits" mentioned in 5.2.2 is wholly undefined, thus is open to biased interpretation;
(c) the only other areas where charge can be regulated are those which mention power limits (the limits, max+/-120KW limit between MGU-K and engine, as well as the 2KW for non-ERS stores); however both these limits do not affect the interpretation in (a). Indeed, similar to (a), it also allows for any quantity of charge to be stored in the non-ERS stores so long as it is drawn at a voltage and for a length of time that keep power output at or below 2KW.
I've included a quote of 5.2.2 and the energy flow diagram below for quick reference.
5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif
courtesy thekneeslider.com
a) MJ is an energy unit. "Battery Charge" should not be confused with "Electric Charge" (the Coulomb). The state of charge of a battery can be expressed in either Joules or Coulombs (more commonly the Amp Hour which is (I think) 3600 Coulomb). It would be inappropriate for the FIA to regulate in terms of "Electric Charge" because the energy stored is the product of electric-charge and Voltage.
is the formula for energy stored in a capacitor (and C is capacitance not charge).
b) SOC limits are again defined in energy units. As Henry has pointed out, SOC is measured using the same (current and voltage) sensing devices as used for measuring electrical energy flows (electrical power). By adding and subtracting these energy flows, the SOC (in energy units) can be monitored. This is therefore only a "virtual SOC", the "actual SOC" will depend on the charge/discharge efficiency of the battery so I imagine there must be some small allowance in the calculation of SOC - perhaps 5% tolerance as with the rating of the MGUs. This means that teams would be able to grow or shrink the "actual SOC" over the course of a race but there would be little benefit - the monitoring would not permit a rapid deployment of this energy eg an 8MJ change in virtual SOC over the course of a few laps.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 06:39
by GrandAxe
gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 02:29
GrandAxe wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 00:58
henry wrote: ↑02 Jan 2019, 11:26
The bolded section is not correct. As well as the energy flows the regulations also control the stored quantity, the State Of Charge.
The reason this is controlled in the way it is, as a “time on the track” limit, is to prevent the build up of stored energy in the way you describe.
No, its a loophole given the following:
(a) charge is only mentioned on the flow diagram as being limited to 4MJ stored in the ERS, however as I mentioned, charge is not an energy analogue so cannot be measured in energy units - therefore, the only logical conclusion is that
any quantity of charge can be stored, but it must not be drawn at a greater voltage than would be allowed by the energy equation,
where C is Coulombs and V is voltage;
(b) further, the "state of charge limits" mentioned in 5.2.2 is wholly undefined, thus is open to biased interpretation;
(c) the only other areas where charge can be regulated are those which mention power limits (the limits, max+/-120KW limit between MGU-K and engine, as well as the 2KW for non-ERS stores); however both these limits do not affect the interpretation in (a). Indeed, similar to (a), it also allows for any quantity of charge to be stored in the non-ERS stores so long as it is drawn at a voltage and for a length of time that keep power output at or below 2KW.
I've included a quote of 5.2.2 and the energy flow diagram below for quick reference.
5.2.2 Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations.
When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing line, however, when entering the pits the lap will end, and the next one will begin, at the start of the pit lane (as defined in the F1 Sporting Regulations).
Electrical DC measurements will be used to verify that the energy and power requirements are being respected.
A fixed efficiency correction of 0.95 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K power.
http://thekneeslider.com/images/2013/12/2014-f1-ers.gif
courtesy thekneeslider.com
a) MJ is an energy unit. "Battery Charge" should not be confused with "Electric Charge" (the Coulomb). The state of charge of a battery can be expressed in either Joules or Coulombs (more commonly the Amp Hour which is (I think) 3600 Coulomb). It would be inappropriate for the FIA to regulate in terms of "Electric Charge" because the energy stored is the product of electric-charge and Voltage.
is the formula for energy stored in a capacitor (and C is capacitance not charge).
b) SOC limits are again defined in energy units. As Henry has pointed out, SOC is measured using the same (current and voltage) sensing devices as used for measuring electrical energy flows (electrical power). By adding and subtracting these energy flows, the SOC (in energy units) can be monitored. This is therefore only a "virtual SOC", the "actual SOC" will depend on the charge/discharge efficiency of the battery so I imagine there must be some small allowance in the calculation of SOC - perhaps 5% tolerance as with the rating of the MGUs. This means that teams would be able to grow or shrink the "actual SOC" over the course of a race but there would be little benefit - the monitoring would not permit a rapid deployment of this energy eg an 8MJ change in virtual SOC over the course of a few laps.
Yeah, my mistake was forgetting that both coulombs and voltage increase while storing charge. The relationship between both is linear.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 14:00
by dfegan358
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 14:06
by gandharva
Autobild
That's where I stopped reading.