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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 12:58
by aral
This thread is going around in circles , quoting unverified sources and theories. Whereas TDs were issued because of some innuendos, it was confirmed by the FIA that nothing was found amiss with the Ferrari PU. It might suit some to believe that there was some cheating, but there has been NO confirmation of any such event. Now, can we please get back to discussing the actual facts relating to the PU rather than all this "he says...you say" etc
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 20:24
by PlatinumZealot
The rumours seems sort of strange because any team with a return line, as I said before, can return fuel back to the tank and the flow meter would "double-read" the fuel, under-delivered or not. And, wouldn't these return lines be totally obvious?? This is why a sugested a second sensor on any-return lines to the tank.
Another thing I must mention, the most advanced ultrasonic meters integrate the fuel flow over the entire pipe diameter, in other words they take a velocity snap-shot of the fluid and it is easy to find out what flow regime is occurring in the fluid. Any special temperature manipulation can also be captured by the sensor. Forcing the sensor to under-report the fuel has to be done by some serious outside interference!
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 20:33
by Nonserviam85
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:24
The rumours seems sort of strange because any team with a return line, as I said before, can return fuel back to the tank and the flow meter would "double-read" the fuel, under-delivered or not. And, wouldn't these return lines be totally obvious?? This is why a sugested a second sensor on any-return lines to the tank.
Another thing I must mention, the most advanced ultrasonic meters integrate the fuel flow over the entire pipe diameter, in other words they take a velocity snap-shot of the fluid and it is easy to find out what flow regime is occurring in the fluid. Any special temperature manipulation can also be captured by the sensor. Forcing the sensor to under-report the fuel has to be done by some serious outside interference!
Yeah they are using quantum technology to change the state of the fuel and manipulate the sensor...
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 20:41
by saviour stivala
What fuel flows through the fuel flow sensor must end-up into the combustion chambers. in short, the fuel system is 'returnless', which means there is no fuel returning to the fuel tank.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 21:28
by dans79
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:24
Another thing I must mention, the most advanced ultrasonic meters integrate the fuel flow over the entire pipe diameter, in other words they take a velocity snap-shot of the fluid and it is easy to find out what flow regime is occurring in the fluid. Any special temperature manipulation can also be captured by the sensor. Forcing the sensor to under-report the fuel has to be done by some serious outside interference!
I posted this like two months ago in this thread. The article is about temperature sensors, but if you read the paper you will see how almost any sensor that needs signal amplification could be manipulated.
https://news.engin.umich.edu/2019/09/re ... -industry/
The research paper referenced.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.07110.pdf
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 21:29
by dans79
saviour stivala wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:41
What fuel flows through the fuel flow sensor must end-up into the combustion chambers. in short, the fuel system is 'returnless', which means there is no fuel returning to the fuel tank.
It has no return line, but that doesn't mean you might not get back flow.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 21:35
by saviour stivala
It is a 'returnless system' and what fuel passes through the fuel flow sensor must end-up in the combustion chambers.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 22:37
by dans79
saviour stivala wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 21:35
It is a 'returnless system' and what fuel passes through the fuel flow sensor must end-up in the combustion chambers.
I'm sorry to say that I don't think you understand the concept of back flow then. The sensor is not a check valve, so it is possible that do to pressure pulses, pressure build up, line expansion do to pressure etc, the fuel can flow backwards to an extent.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 23:03
by saviour stivala
The fuel flows through the fuel flow sensor under constant pressure. For there to be backflow there must be opposed pressure which is greater then the flow through sensor pressure.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 00:38
by subcritical71
dans79 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 22:37
saviour stivala wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 21:35
It is a 'returnless system' and what fuel passes through the fuel flow sensor must end-up in the combustion chambers.
I'm sorry to say that I don't think you understand the concept of back flow then. The sensor is not a check valve, so it is possible that do to pressure pulses, pressure build up, line expansion do to pressure etc, the fuel can flow backwards to an extent.
Its my understanding that the sensor is capable of back flow measurement also... to what extent this is implemented and the accuracy I don't know.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 04:04
by ncx
Tmk, the FFM calculates the flow velocity by measuring U/S pulses time-of-flight between two transducers/receivers at fixed positions, longitudinally to the flow, back and forth. I would think that the accuracy is the same in both directions of flow.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 04:27
by saviour stivala
The sensor is capable to read flow in both directions which means it does not have one directional flow only, a must be inlet port and a must be outlet port.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 05:42
by dans79
ncx wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 04:04
Tmk, the FFM calculates the flow velocity by measuring U/S pulses time-of-flight between two transducers/receivers at fixed positions, longitudinally to the flow, back and forth. I would think that the accuracy is the same in both directions of flow.
I would hope so, or it would be pretty much useless.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 07:09
by siskue2005
aral wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 12:58
This thread is going around in circles , quoting unverified sources and theories. Whereas TDs were issued because of some innuendos, it was confirmed by the FIA that nothing was found amiss with the Ferrari PU. It might suit some to believe that there was some cheating, but there has been NO confirmation of any such event. Now, can we please get back to discussing the actual facts relating to the PU rather than all this "he says...you say" etc
I am sorry, but when did FIA give a statement like that? Could you please direct me to the source? Thank you
Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 10:07
by Wouter
aral wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 12:58
Whereas TDs were issued because of some innuendos, it was confirmed by the FIA that nothing was found amiss with the Ferrari PU.
siskue2005 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 07:09
I am sorry, but when did FIA give a statement like that? Could you please direct me to the source? Thank you
@Aral, Could you please direct me to the source too? I can not find this anywhere. Thank you .