F1technical.net

...and that rule will explain everything.

But there is no such thing as Unfairrari collaborating with the Ma-FIA... That wouldn't be F1...

OO7 wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 02:21

gruntguru wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 02:03

There is room for the FIA to rule a system as illegal but not a deliberate infringement of the existing rules - ie a "loophole". The FIA can then block further use of the system and modify the rules to close the loophole. I assume Ferrari were able to negotiate to get the FIA to take this stance rather than declare a deliberate violation with the usual penalties and embarrassment.

Are teams ever punished under such circumstances though?

At least I don't think Ferrari will get any warm welcome where they go this year. Why should they. No reason No respect

I'm kind of thinking could FOM be involved in this hush-hush tactic? Ferrari yet to sign a new concorde agreement and F1 do need Ferrari, like it or not. Ferrari make instantly recognisable cars, the type most of us would love to own.

So Ferrari, knowing they could have a "I'm taking my ball and going home" joker card could quite easily manipulate FOM/FIA into this bs FIA statement.

I'm not saying they have raced an illegal PU, but risk vs reward...it's a no brainer to try anything.

However, judging by the lack of content in the statement though it would appear something suspect was at play (loophole or whatever). Makes me wonder, had Ferrari won more races, impacted the championship result more or flat out won one or both championships would we hear anything at all or would the FIA feel compelled to act drastically?

To be clear, I really want Ferrari challenging for championships, just so long as it's an even playing field - which I know F1 isn't.

OO7 wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 02:21

gruntguru wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 02:03

There is room for the FIA to rule a system as illegal but not a deliberate infringement of the existing rules - ie a "loophole". The FIA can then block further use of the system and modify the rules to close the loophole. I assume Ferrari were able to negotiate to get the FIA to take this stance rather than declare a deliberate violation with the usual penalties and embarrassment.

Are teams ever punished under such circumstances though?

Depends if it can be definitively proven. Back in 2009/2010, double diffusers were technically illegal due to certain shadowing regulations forcing a slot/hole present where the diffuser meets the floor (google william toet to get the full on that), but teams design a flexible part that would bend and close the hole/slot when driving, making the car when driving illegal, but legal when stationary. The FIA was not able to prove that.

However, a loophole is normally considered "legal" ie it is a clever, legal interpretation of a regulation. If the FIA deems a solution not legal, they will usually follow up with a Technical Directive, while if they deem it legal they will eventually rewrite the rules. However, if it can be definitely proven that something is illegal and run in qualifying/race, it should lead to a DSQ (if it is an infriction of the technical regulations).

I think this has been quite a severe punishment for Ferrari - it's a big public humiliation after all. FIA didn't need to come out with an announcement, even if it was something of a compromise.

turbof1 wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 11:51

Depends if it can be definitively proven.

However, a loophole is normally considered "legal" ie it is a clever, legal interpretation of a regulation. If the FIA deems a solution not legal, they will usually follow up with a Technical Directive, while if they deem it legal they will eventually rewrite the rules. However, if it can be definitely proven that something is illegal and run in qualifying/race, it should lead to a DSQ (if it is an infriction of the technical regulations).

Yes okay but why do you think FIA avoided saying whether anything was proven or not? They could have avoided all this speculation very easily.

It's also worth mentioning that the FIA seem to hope this goes away without much questioning. They didn't announce it until the very last moments of testing with a gap before everyone gets together again. I hope the teams and press really hammer them and don't just forget about it

kimetic wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:11

turbof1 wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 11:51

Depends if it can be definitively proven.

However, a loophole is normally considered "legal" ie it is a clever, legal interpretation of a regulation. If the FIA deems a solution not legal, they will usually follow up with a Technical Directive, while if they deem it legal they will eventually rewrite the rules. However, if it can be definitely proven that something is illegal and run in qualifying/race, it should lead to a DSQ (if it is an infriction of the technical regulations).

Yes okay but why do you think FIA avoided saying whether anything was proven or not? They could have avoided all this speculation very easily.

If there ever was a moment to use this emoji, it is now:


I think in the history of F1, this is the first time they tried to deal with it like that. It is an anomality.

marmer wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:48

It's also worth mentioning that the FIA seem to hope this goes away without much questioning. They didn't announce it until the very last moments of testing with a gap before everyone gets together again. I hope the teams and press really hammer them and don't just forget about it

yes it was 'buried', tho they weren't very smart then were they? Possibly! It was guaranteed to be the main thing to talk about for two weeks, when they didn't actually need to say anything at all. Nobody was expecting a statement about it i don't think, it could easily be FIA actually wanting to seem like they're being nice but actually setting out to get them, feeling they'd been played, now they have all their new engineers and the Ross/Jean axis who might see the tricks as basically a bit of an insult

i bet the Ferrari board are incandescent about it all, what a meltdown

kimetic wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:07

I think this has been quite a severe punishment for Ferrari - it's a big public humiliation after all. FIA didn't need to come out with an announcement, even if it was something of a compromise.

A 'severe punishment'? Ferrari got the smallest punishment possible, no points taken away and still no explanation about what was wrong with the engine.

Jip wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:08

kimetic wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:07

I think this has been quite a severe punishment for Ferrari - it's a big public humiliation after all. FIA didn't need to come out with an announcement, even if it was something of a compromise.

A 'severe punishment'? Ferrari got the smallest punishment possible, no points taken away and still no explanation about what was wrong with the engine.

Ferrari is not guilty, according to FIA. Bah.. only haters..

FIA: "We don't know exactly what you are doing but the data is clear you are doing something, and we ask you to stop so we
can stop putting resources into this and all the other teams talk of cheating."

Ferrari "We were not cheating but we will stop doing what we are doing for the good of the sport".

That's how I see it.

Red Bull was cheating front wing deflection tests for years and years, by literally burying springs in their wing, and when caught it could only be proved (empirically) for that one race, their punishment was to be DQ'd from that weekend's qualy session only.

Polite wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:14

Jip wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:08

kimetic wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:07

I think this has been quite a severe punishment for Ferrari - it's a big public humiliation after all. FIA didn't need to come out with an announcement, even if it was something of a compromise.

A 'severe punishment'? Ferrari got the smallest punishment possible, no points taken away and still no explanation about what was wrong with the engine.

Ferrari is not guilty, according to FIA. Bah.. only haters..

They settled, you don't settle when nothing went wrong. So it is clear that Ferrari did something wrong, but we still don't know what.

Giblet wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:19

FIA: "We don't know exactly what you are doing but the data is clear you are doing something, and we ask you to stop so we
can stop putting resources into this and all the other teams talk of cheating."

Ferrari "We were not cheating but we will stop doing what we are doing for the good of the sport".

Pretty much how I see the situation myself.
It is likely, that FIA could not find anything illegal, i.e. the system or procedure which operates to affect the fuel flow, but probably had something which could indicate that fuel flow irregularities could have happened. The cause of the secrecy can be that the arrangement and the characteristics of the sensors that FIA mandates could somehow facilitate this. The agreement between FIA and Ferrari likely involves some data sharing which can clear the situation with the fuel flow for the future.

Polite wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:14

Jip wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 15:08

kimetic wrote: ↑

02 Mar 2020, 12:07

I think this has been quite a severe punishment for Ferrari - it's a big public humiliation after all. FIA didn't need to come out with an announcement, even if it was something of a compromise.

A 'severe punishment'? Ferrari got the smallest punishment possible, no points taken away and still no explanation about what was wrong with the engine.

Ferrari is not guilty, according to FIA. Bah.. only haters..

They are not innocent either, according to the FIA.

Maybe its just not a veto power they hold over the sport but a contractual clause which prevents the FIA from speaking of Ferrari in a way they do not approve.