F1technical.net

Jolle wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 12:22

jumpingfish wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 12:13

Mark Hughes in June 2020

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... e-trickery

https://i.imgur.com/rQUmdFc.png

https://i.imgur.com/xAK8MQZ.png

You don’t have to use a lap for that, it’s just a few cc’s per straight you need for a good boost, any corner before a straight can do that. A simple air bubble or “badly” bled overflow tank would provide the capacity to play with the amount of fuel past the sensor, providing an extra boost.

Anyway, it should be something simple, small or even invisible. Not as additional electric device which can be 100% found or holey airboxes with oil

It's an interesting lesson to learn I think.

By putting their resources into 'cheating' they dropped significant development on the fundamentals of their PU, or had to design things around the 'cheats' meaning they were then a compromise under normal conditions.

Now the 'cheats' have been removed they have probably been knocked back 18 months of engine development and have the worst PU on the grid.

Maybe this is why the FIA did not punish them because it was clear the loss in performance would be significant enough to already push Ferrari down the grid for 1 or 2 seasons.

djones wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 14:15

It's an interesting lesson to learn I think.

By putting their resources into 'cheating' they dropped significant development on the fundamentals of their PU, or had to design things around the 'cheats' meaning they were then a compromise under normal conditions.

Now the 'cheats' have been removed they have probably been knocked back 18 months of engine development and have the worst PU on the grid.

Maybe this is why the FIA did not punish them because it was clear the loss in performance would be significant enough to already push Ferrari down the grid for 1 or 2 seasons.

Does Ferrari have any opportunities to develop the engine this and next season?

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

ScrewCaptain27 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:46

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

But why all of a sudden?
Any TDs in that area as well? Or reliability concerns?

MtthsMlw wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 18:10

ScrewCaptain27 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:46

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

But why all of a sudden?
Any TDs in that area as well? Or reliability concerns?

From Mark Hughes, maybe it is

there is a new IVT sensor for the ERS system. The IVT sensor (measuring voltage and current) is used to ensure the electrical energy between the different parts of the power unit is not distributed in a way that would subvert the regulations which limit the electrical energy boost to 120kW maximum. A new, more electronically sophisticated version has been introduced and will be on the cars of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull from Austria – and on the rest subsequently.

jumpingfish wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 18:16

.... The IVT sensor (measuring voltage and current) is used to ensure the electrical energy between the different parts of the power unit is not distributed in a way that would subvert the regulations which limit the electrical energy boost to 120kW maximum.....

the rules have said for years .....
the MGU-K electrical power input cannot exceed 126.3 kW
(the MGU-K only giving more than 120 kW mechanical power output if efficiency is more than 95%)

and there is/was no rule limiting electrical energy boost because that term doesn't exist ....

or do the rules now limit simultaneous (combined) MGU-K motoring power and/or MGU-H motoring power to 120 kW ?

Carl Mccoy wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:17

Does Ferrari have any opportunities to develop the engine this and next season?

This season MGU-K, ES and CE are allowed to be changed once. MGU-H and engine sub-assemblies like components within cam-covers, cylinder heads, crankcase and gear case aren't allowed to be changed in 2020 anymore. Don't know about other engine components, though.

ScrewCaptain27 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:46

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

Relatively to what? (I haven't seen the speed trap data yet.)
Keep in mind that the Merc PUs apparently had to be tuned down towards the end of the race because of a sensor issue (according to the team radio) or more likely something more worrying, e.g. overheating.

ncx wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 20:54

ScrewCaptain27 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:46

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

Relatively to what? (I haven't seen the speed trap data yet.)
Keep in mind that the Merc PUs apparently had to be tuned down towards the end of the race because of a sensor issue (according to the team radio) or more likely something more worrying, e.g. overheating.

The sensor issue was gearbox related.

LM10 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 21:03

ncx wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 20:54

ScrewCaptain27 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 17:46

From the onboard, the MGU-K motor seems much quieter this year, almost impossible to hear. Could it be that the fuel trick is just a secondary issue (IIRC it only really helped in qualifying and restarts last year) and they have far more serious ERS problems? Leclerc had decent straight-line speed at the end of the race with (presumably) fully charged batteries, and it was not just slipstream.

Relatively to what? (I haven't seen the speed trap data yet.)
Keep in mind that the Merc PUs apparently had to be tuned down towards the end of the race because of a sensor issue (according to the team radio) or more likely something more worrying, e.g. overheating.

The sensor issue was gearbox related.

Ok, thanks. That could explain why the drivers were told to avoid kerbs. This in itself could have slowed them down a little bit, but I would assume that would have also implied not to stress the powertrain unnecessarily (hence lower PU modes).

Edit add: Just read an interview during which Wolff said that they were very worried for the integrity of the gearbox and asked the drivers to be careful. They are looking for ways to make it stronger in time for the next GP.

ncx wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 21:09

LM10 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 21:03

ncx wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 20:54

Relatively to what? (I haven't seen the speed trap data yet.)
Keep in mind that the Merc PUs apparently had to be tuned down towards the end of the race because of a sensor issue (according to the team radio) or more likely something more worrying, e.g. overheating.

The sensor issue was gearbox related.

Ok, thanks. That could explain why the drivers were told to avoid kerbs. This in itself could have slowed them down a little bit, but I would assume that would have also implied not to stress the powertrain unnecessarily (hence lower PU modes).

Edit add: Just read an interview during which Wolff said that they were very worried for the integrity of the gearbox and asked the drivers to be careful. They are looking for ways to make it stronger in time for the next GP.

Would that be the internals or the casing its self? Were they detecting flex do you think?

Big Tea wrote: ↑

06 Jul 2020, 12:52

ncx wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 21:09

LM10 wrote: ↑

05 Jul 2020, 21:03

The sensor issue was gearbox related.

Ok, thanks. That could explain why the drivers were told to avoid kerbs. This in itself could have slowed them down a little bit, but I would assume that would have also implied not to stress the powertrain unnecessarily (hence lower PU modes).

Edit add: Just read an interview during which Wolff said that they were very worried for the integrity of the gearbox and asked the drivers to be careful. They are looking for ways to make it stronger in time for the next GP.

Would that be the internals or the casing its self? Were they detecting flex do you think?

Edit, sorry ignore that. just realise its a Ferrari thread

Ferrari pu sounds different compared to last season at gear changes. What do you think about that? I am not sure but engine also sounds different

Their ICE has been developed around a bigger oil burning crutch than Mercedes and Honda's has been and it come back to bite them.

All power units are less powerful if we go by Austria laptimes and factor in the expected aero and chassis advancements they should have had at this time. But it seems Mercedes has lost less, partly due to FIA clamping down on them first, and then it seems Renault the least and Honda and then Ferrari who has lost the most.

Maybe one could surmise that the Ferrari "cheat" had a a lot to do with dependence on oil burning. Maybe the Fuel is activated by catalysts in oil or some weird phenomena like that. Or possibly combustion chambers were designed for oil and fuel combustion... And now they have to redesign new chambers for fuel only.. Which take long time to develop.