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Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 18:53
by FW17
Ferrari and Merc water coolers could develop a leak when the pump is turned to max during Q3. The said liquid could act as water spray or certain combustible properties. Water alone is enough for a big bang
Soon FIA will be sending a directive out that in 2019 the intercooler liquid cannot contain such thing, topped off or have a diffential speed pump
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 18:54
by Sieper
Ferrari did try it with a separate oil tank mid last year (rumoured) this got removed, allegedly after Mercedes inquired (but no further punishment, other the not having the preferred system available anymore). I don’t think separate individual oil tanks are allowed.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 21:20
by Jokeri
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 18:54
Ferrari did try it with a separate oil tank mid last year (rumoured) this got removed, allegedly after Mercedes inquired (but no further punishment, other the not having the preferred system available anymore). I don’t think separate individual oil tanks are allowed.
How does Mercedes know what Ferrari tests?
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 21:31
by Maritimer
Jokeri wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:20
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 18:54
Ferrari did try it with a separate oil tank mid last year (rumoured) this got removed, allegedly after Mercedes inquired (but no further punishment, other the not having the preferred system available anymore). I don’t think separate individual oil tanks are allowed.
How does Mercedes know what Ferrari tests?
If you mean the extra tank, it was imaged multiple times so everyone knew it was there eventually.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 22:24
by Godius
Jokeri wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:20
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 18:54
Ferrari did try it with a separate oil tank mid last year (rumoured) this got removed, allegedly after Mercedes inquired (but no further punishment, other the not having the preferred system available anymore). I don’t think separate individual oil tanks are allowed.
How does Mercedes know what Ferrari tests?
According to AMuS during pre-season testing 16/17 Mercedes was already a bit suspicious when when Ferrari asked for clarification of a technical directive regarding the possibility to use 2 different types of oil specifications.
Mercedes began gathering intelligence by analysing gps-data to compare the difference in speed of the Ferrari in qualifying and in race trim. After the Canadian Grand Prix it became very clear that Ferrari had an abnormal amount of boost on the long straights in qualifying. This lead to the Mercedes inquiry regarding the 2nd oil tank. It turned out that the additional oil tank was there since Melbourne.
Christian Horner (via sky sports) said that additional intelligence was gathered by an ex-Ferrari engineer that moved to the Mercedes team in 2017. But I have doubts about what Horner stated.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 22:33
by Big Mangalhit
Godius wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 22:24
Jokeri wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:20
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 18:54
Ferrari did try it with a separate oil tank mid last year (rumoured) this got removed, allegedly after Mercedes inquired (but no further punishment, other the not having the preferred system available anymore). I don’t think separate individual oil tanks are allowed.
How does Mercedes know what Ferrari tests?
According to AMuS during pre-season testing 16/17 Mercedes was already a bit suspicious when when Ferrari asked for clarification of a technical directive regarding the possibility to use 2 different types of oil specifications.
Mercedes began gathering intelligence by analysing gps-data to compare the difference in speed of the Ferrari in qualifying and in race trim. After the Canadian Grand Prix it became very clear that Ferrari had an abnormal amount of boost on the long straights in qualifying. This lead to the Mercedes inquiry regarding the 2nd oil tank. It turned out that the additional oil tank was there since Melbourne.
Christian Horner (via sky sports) said that additional intelligence was gathered by an ex-Ferrari engineer that moved to the Mercedes team in 2017. But I have doubts about what Horner stated.
Yeah I think Horner was hinting at Allison. Kinda makes sense that he knew how Ferrari operated and makes sense that merc tried to ban it like ANY other team would. There are no saints in f1
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:36
by Laserguru
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 11:11
Mr.G wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 07:19
stevesingo wrote: ↑13 Mar 2018, 22:49
So, if a fluid which has a primary purpose of cooling and lubricating the MGU-H, were to leak through a seal in to the compressor housing...
Yes, that is what I want to point out, no active valves and still oil as the fuel...
But this is in fact directly in violation of 20.1.1, so now we only have to wait on FIA actually prosecuting on this, which they likely won’t (up to the limit of 0,6l per 100km).
As per Charlie Whiting this is exactly what is happening (oops no MGU-H, my mistake). Fia inspected Ferrary already. Since they believes Ferrari’s intentions are not to cheat it is allowed. “We see it quite often, we saw it a lot with the Toro Rosso last year. We think that’s just oil getting into the turbo through the seals. It’s not doing it on the track”
So: fia inspects, thinks -not knows- what happens, and still declares it legal.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:43
by Laserguru
Sieper wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 17:21
Mgu-h oil is oil. Likely this will be the play indeed but If FIA will accept this (I gues so, they have been allowing for oil burn for 4 years now) is the question. Oil is oil (engine) though, you are not allowed several oil tanks. Just oil and fuel.
Ferrari had a seperate oil tank which contained a different type of oil, and it was only filled during qualification. This was banned. Next the qualiifcation modes were achieved by feeding oil into the air intake: “we’ve also routed the breather, that can no longer go into the air intake which was the biggest issue”.
What about this then: “We’ve made them all fit homologated oil sensors in their
main oil tanks but they’ve got
auxiliary oil tanks as well, we’ve got to be able to check those too. So it’s just a matter of detail checking just to make sure they are respecting the 0.6 [litres per kilometre] even over short distances.”
One type of oil though, for which you need approval, but not just oil: your own ingenious oil. In several oil tanks. Only the main oil tank level is checked. Oil burning season is open. Don’t get caught.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 11:03
by Sieper
And they won’t, and even If they do, they won’t get punished (like last year). Yes I too think oil burning is still not off the table.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 11:43
by giantfan10
Sieper wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 11:03
And they won’t, and even If they do, they won’t get punished (like last year). Yes I too think oil burning is still not off the table.
I'm absolutely amazed at how Ferrari suddenly became the poster child for oil burning when it is Mercedes who has been burning oil since 2014. Mercedes complained about Ferrari's method of burning oil because it was potentially a better system. I Suspect Mercedes was using the oil breather to burn oil...Ferrari stepped it up with a separate oil tank and Mercedes couldn't risk their quali advantage being wiped out if Ferrari perfected the system so they asked for clarification. Mercedes then moved up their engine change to avoid the in season clamp down on oil burning and laughed all the way to a championship while every other team was restriced in the amount that they could burn.
Another point that amazes me is the multitude of fans thinking that Ferrari is cheating when they are venting crankcase oil to the atmosphere.... exactly the way the governing body stipulated.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 12:43
by zac510
I'm sure the FIA can tear it apart post-race (a'la BAR fuel tanks), or just reduce the oil burn amount mid-season like they did last year. IMO it's nothing to worry about until there is clear evidence that there's bad stuff going on.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 16:10
by Sieper
giantfan10 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 11:43
Sieper wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 11:03
And they won’t, and even If they do, they won’t get punished (like last year). Yes I too think oil burning is still not off the table.
I'm absolutely amazed at how Ferrari suddenly became the poster child for oil burning when it is Mercedes who has been burning oil since 2014. Mercedes complained about Ferrari's method of burning oil because it was potentially a better system. I Suspect Mercedes was using the oil breather to burn oil...Ferrari stepped it up with a separate oil tank and Mercedes couldn't risk their quali advantage being wiped out if Ferrari perfected the system so they asked for clarification. Mercedes then moved up their engine change to avoid the in season clamp down on oil burning and laughed all the way to a championship while every other team was restriced in the amount that they could burn.
Another point that amazes me is the multitude of fans thinking that Ferrari is cheating when they are venting crankcase oil to the atmosphere.... exactly the way the governing body stipulated.
And I am as amazed why you would state that people make Ferrari the poster child? I agree merc has been the main perp and what they did last year in Monza was especially dirty and was a big part in them winning the championship. but we are talking about the Ferrari PU here, not merc. Why in the clampdownyear is there suddenly massive Plumes from the Ferrari PU. I think they use the turbo leakage path now.
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 18:24
by Big Mangalhit
Sieper wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 16:10
And I am as amazed why you would state that people make Ferrari the poster child? I agree merc has been the main perp and what they did last year in Monza was especially dirty and was a big part in them winning the championship. but we are talking about the Ferrari PU here, not merc.
Why in the clampdownyear is there suddenly massive Plumes from the Ferrari PU. I think they use the turbo leakage path now.
Could be, or maybe the plumes are exactly the oil that is not going to the engine anymore... And thus it is not a trick but instead it is just normal oil venting. Doesn't this answer you question in a plausible way?
Let me ask you, if they are burning through the turbo wouldn't the fumes be coming from the exhaust pipe? Because they seem to come from the new mandated oil breather positioned on the crash structure.
I'm not saying they are not burning oil, heck if it is possible for sure they'll all try, but tell me how do you conciliate your theory that the fumes are related to oil burning leaking from the turbo with the fumes coming out of the crash structure?
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 20:30
by Mr.G
Big Mangalhit wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 18:24
Sieper wrote: ↑15 Mar 2018, 16:10
And I am as amazed why you would state that people make Ferrari the poster child? I agree merc has been the main perp and what they did last year in Monza was especially dirty and was a big part in them winning the championship. but we are talking about the Ferrari PU here, not merc.
Why in the clampdownyear is there suddenly massive Plumes from the Ferrari PU. I think they use the turbo leakage path now.
Could be, or maybe the plumes are exactly the oil that is not going to the engine anymore... And thus it is not a trick but instead it is just normal oil venting. Doesn't this answer you question in a plausible way?
Let me ask you, if they are burning through the turbo wouldn't the fumes be coming from the exhaust pipe? Because they seem to come from the new mandated oil breather positioned on the crash structure.
I'm not saying they are not burning oil, heck if it is possible for sure they'll all try, but tell me how do you conciliate your theory that the fumes are related to oil burning leaking from the turbo with the fumes coming out of the crash structure?
Well there two things:
- smoke from crash structure > mandatory oil fumes venting
- massive smoke during start > by the volume it must come from main exhaust
The idea is when the engine is cut off the turbo is still spinning down until it eventually stops and during that time the oil is still leaking to the system. Then when the engine is started again it burn all the built-up oil at once and generate massive smoke fumes... (just my theory)...
Re: Ferrari Power Unit
Posted: 15 Mar 2018, 20:54
by shady
So the whole vent under the crash structure isnt the actual vent... theres a clear tube that the oil vapor is expelled from..
So this begs the question... why the crash structure vent, rather why is it so wide? Is it possible theres an intake path to the compressor? As the oil vapor is 'expelled' its sucked back in.. still 'following' the rules.