## Wind Power in F1

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machin wrote:but the crux of it is that the energy required to drive the fans comes from the relative speed of the air and the car........

Only way this would work is if the 'fans' (technically they would be 'turbines') could be deployed during braking and then retracted during acceleration.
Tech_Racer
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Joined: 28 Mar 2009

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Crystalix wrote:
alelanza wrote:[...] the engine is the one moving those fans

But... fans are moved by wind, not by any engine... I certainly misunderstood something in what you've said.

Conservation of Energy!

OK if you put a fan in the sidepod ie. before the radiator what you are going essentially is reducing the efficiency of the radiator.

Let me put it vaguely this way. The air that comes in the side pod has some Kinetic Energy (velocity of individual molecules) Now when they(the air molecules) hit the fan(windmill) blade there is impact and some Kinetic energy of the air molecules is lost in form of some waste heat and the KE of the fan. Now then the air gets to the radiator then the KE is less Hence velocity is less so cooling is less. Which implies you have to use a larger radiator => bigger sidepods => more drag => more engine power used to overcome drag => engine is driving the fan in the sidepod.

Hence prooved:P

Ever thought why so many cars have a motor driven fan in front of the radiator?
The_Man
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Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Location: Mumbai India

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OK... I understand now

You want number : the efficiency of a wind turbine is P = (8/27)*rho*S*v^3 (Betz formulae)

where S is the section of the turbine, so pi*radius^2.

With a 25cm diameter (which can be included in sidepods) we get 10kW for each fan. It is like 13 horsepower.
So with both of the wind mills we get near that 30 extra horsepower.

In comparision the KERS give 80 extra horsepower, but only 7s a lap !
Motorsport Engineering & Management @ Cranfield University
Crystalix
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008

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80bhp for 7 sec is a rule limit....the technology certainly should be capable for more...
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004

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Crystalix wrote:OK... I understand now

You want number : the efficiency of a wind turbine is P = (8/27)*rho*S*v^3 (Betz formulae)

where S is the section of the turbine, so pi*radius^2.

With a 25cm diameter (which can be included in sidepods) we get 10kW for each fan. It is like 13 horsepower.
So with both of the wind mills we get near that 30 extra horsepower.

In comparision the KERS give 80 extra horsepower, but only 7s a lap !

Yes what the other guys have explained. In essence it does not matter if you get 30 or 3000 hp via the fans, in the end that will come from the engine and due to energy losses will be less than what the engine has to put out due to the fan or turbine being there.
Alejandro L.
alelanza
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Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Location: San José, Costa Rica

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Crystalix, you propose to place fans in the sidepods to generate power. It would be one thing if the wind was driving the flow going into the sidepods, but that is not the case. The "wind" is actually the car moving through the air and thus the energy used to move that "wind" is all traced back to the engine. Hundreds of horsepower are used up to move the car through the air, or if you change your frame of reference, move the air around the car.

A fan/generator system placed inside the side pod, on top of the intake, behind the diffuser, or anywhere else on the car, will convert the energy of the air back into electrical power, which could then be used to propel the car. Think about this for a second. The power to create the airflow came from the engine. Let's assume we have ideal fans and ideal generators with zero losses. If this system is able to convert all the energy of a certain portion of moving air back into electrical boost power, it could, in theory, be put back into the drivetrain. But the net gain would be zero. Taking out all the energy transfer, the engine would essentially be driving that electric motor.

In real world circumstances, there is always energy lost due to inefficiencies. By converting the power back and forth so many times, there would be a huge net loss.

Even in ideal circumstances, there would be zero gain to be had from adding wind turbines to the car.
slimjim8201
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006

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Gotta love those laws of thermodynamics.

1st: Cant get something for nothing.

2nd: You can only get so much on a perfect day.

3rd: THERE ARE NO PERFECT DAYS!
ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 1 Oct 2008

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Last I checked, ricer Civic boyz can still be fooled into buying PMMs. I think you should take your idea into the aftermarket.
Shredcheddar
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Joined: 22 Jan 2009

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ISLAMATRON wrote:Gotta love those laws of thermodynamics.

1st: Cant get something for nothing.

2nd: You can only get so much on a perfect day.

3rd: THERE ARE NO PERFECT DAYS!

LOL Nice!
The_Man
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Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Location: Mumbai India

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Is this really "F1 Technical"? A 9th grade trick-question renders 24 posts in 12 hours?
Amazing.
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008

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Hum. I'm a physic student and it was just an idea. Wind mills in the desert are working well, "they get someting for nothing", as you said.
Nevertheless, I understand what you explained to me.

But why can't I say the same thing with KERS : the extra power is given by brake-energy, given by engine (no engine, no velocitie, no braking) and so we are in the same kind of circle...

xpensive, if you find amazing that there is so much answers, you can delete yours, there'll be one less.
Motorsport Engineering & Management @ Cranfield University
Crystalix
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008

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So you are a student, would you care to explain more specifically of what and where?
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008

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Here ? OK

[I'm student in physics (2nd year) at EPFL in Lausanne.

I see you live in Sweden ? Next year I'll come et the Uppsala University for my 3rd year.]

Back to the subject
Motorsport Engineering & Management @ Cranfield University
Crystalix
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008

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Tech_Racer wrote:
machin wrote:but the crux of it is that the energy required to drive the fans comes from the relative speed of the air and the car........

Only way this would work is if the 'fans' (technically they would be 'turbines') could be deployed during braking and then retracted during acceleration.

This is a VERY GOOD IDEA.. Use the Fans to help charge the KERS.

I Also think that You can take advantage of the pressure difference above and below the car some how.. But i haven't thought too deeply about it.
"I was blessed with the ability to understand how cars move," he explains. "You know how in 'The Matrix,' he can see the matrix? When I'm driving, I see the lines."
n smikle
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008

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Crystalix, I suggest you take up these issues with your Physics professor, he should be able to explain a few things right off the bat.
"Bernoulli is a nine-letter name"
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008

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