2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[donskar]

I find F1Technical to be the best F1 forum, but in the interest of sharing info fully, here is more from the "other" forum (perhaps the German text will help track down the source??):

The Fota/FIA battle has taken another turn to the right.
Before the FOTA house crumbles a bit more, the manufacturer members of this organization have made a pact, with teeth.
AMuS (reliable) reports that although they all agree that a split is least desirable (a that stance lead by BMW) they have vowed to stay together as one.
This pact that ALL manufacturers signed, stipulates that a $50mil fine will be paid by any member that bolts rank. The egreement is temporary.

So ganz traut man sich offensichtlich trotzdem nicht über den Weg. Jetzt ist durchgesickert, dass sich die fünf Hersteller Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Renault und Toyota mit einem separaten Pakt untereinander abgesichert haben. Angeblich muss jeder Hersteller, der aus der FOTA ausschert, den anderen eine Strafe von jeweils 50 Millionen Euro bezahlen. Das Abkommen gilt nur vorübergehend.

Another poster added this:

Angeblich muss jeder Hersteller, der aus der FOTA ausschert, den anderen eine Strafe von jeweils 50 Millionen Euro bezahlen.

~ each manufacturer, who steps out of fota-line, has to pay a fine of 50mil to EYERY other manufacturer within the fota. so that's 4*50=200mil.

I got a "D" in German almost 40 years (!) ago, so I have NO opinion on the supposed source, nor of the quality of the translation. I share this because IF there is any truth here, then it is a major step by FOTA to ensure and to display their unity. Any of the 5 manufacturers who leave would have to pay a total of 200 Mil Euro (4 X 50) . . .

[donskar]

It's a VERY slow day at work . . . Apologies if this has already been posted, but here is a very clear statement from Ross Brawn -- Brawn is staying in FOTA
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75901:

"I understand Frank's position, Frank had contractual agreements with Bernie and the FIA which we don't have, so he had some difficulty in that respect," said Brawn about the impact of the Williams entry.

"But the existence of this team was dependent on the support of FOTA teams - McLaren and Mercedes in particular are the reason why we are here, and I think the FOTA initiatives are good.

"We seem to have had a disconnection in terms of liaising and negotiating with the FIA, and that has perhaps been the problem because FOTA has got a lot of good ideas and the FIA has got a lot of good ideas. Hopefully those ideas will be brought together to find a solution.

"We seem to have disconnected somehow in this process and what we need to do is reconnect, and I feel that I want to be part of FOTA. It is a good initiative and I feel I can help more towards finding a solution being a member of FOTA than I can stepping out of it, so I intend to remain within FOTA."

Most F1 pronouncements are like Byron's epitaph -- "writ in water," but Brawn is a straightforward man and that statement is pretty definite.

[ISLAMATRON]

hmmm it seems zee Germans got smart and have tried to put in a clause to stop Ferrari from defecting and selling out again like they did last time. I guess this increases the amount BE has to bribe Ferrari this time (or maybe McMerc)

I wonder how "temporary" this agreement is, and how legal?

Ferrari seems delusional about its commitments and contractual obligations, but this is nothing new... did the French court decision show them nothing?

[WhiteBlue]

I find F1Technical to be the best F1 forum, but in the interest of sharing info fully, here is more from the "other" forum (perhaps the German text will help track down the source??):

The Fota/FIA battle has taken another turn to the right.
Before the FOTA house crumbles a bit more, the manufacturer members of this organization have made a pact, with teeth.
AMuS (reliable) reports that although they all agree that a split is least desirable (a that stance lead by BMW) they have vowed to stay together as one.
This pact that ALL manufacturers signed, stipulates that a $50mil fine will be paid by any member that bolts rank. The egreement is temporary.

So ganz traut man sich offensichtlich trotzdem nicht über den Weg. Jetzt ist durchgesickert, dass sich die fünf Hersteller Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Renault und Toyota mit einem separaten Pakt untereinander abgesichert haben. Angeblich muss jeder Hersteller, der aus der FOTA ausschert, den anderen eine Strafe von jeweils 50 Millionen Euro bezahlen. Das Abkommen gilt nur vorübergehend.

Another poster added this:

Angeblich muss jeder Hersteller, der aus der FOTA ausschert, den anderen eine Strafe von jeweils 50 Millionen Euro bezahlen.

~ each manufacturer, who steps out of fota-line, has to pay a fine of 50mil to EYERY other manufacturer within the fota. so that's 4*50=200mil.

I got a "D" in German almost 40 years (!) ago, so I have NO opinion on the supposed source, nor of the quality of the translation. I share this because IF there is any truth here, then it is a major step by FOTA to ensure and to display their unity. Any of the 5 manufacturers who leave would have to pay a total of 200 Mil Euro (4 X 50) . . .

I cannot find the multiple formula in any of the German sources. They both talk about one time 50 mil € and treat this as a rumor. It was not confirmed by any spokesperson of any team.

I listened to a long interview with Mario Theissen today. He said that BMW want to be in F1 next year and that they are working on a solution to achieve that. It was very obvious that he did not want to discuss this issue at all.

[donskar]

Again, in the interest of sharing info of interest to all of us, this is from

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 60603.html

I have no idea about the veracity (or lack), but I hope someone much more talented than I am will do a human translation!

(Unbelievably awful!) translation from Google [I think it claims that
1) Howett verified the "50 Million Euro agreement is in place.
2) It also seems to assert that Malya was threatened with the loss of the Indian GP if he did not sign up with Max. (Did Max threaten Stoddard that the Australian GP could be dropped if he did not behave?]
3) Howett seems to be quoted as saying discussions have begun on a breakaway series]:

One hears that the Indian team from outside pressure was apparently Mallya was threatened that he was not licensed under the 13 formula-1-participants might be, he should not enroll separately and, secondly, we would have him also for 2011 India planned Grand Prix can take away.

Because FOTA makes no secret of the fact that they prefer with the FIA on a common formula-1-World Cup 2010 would be some, but it should not come, then would include the creation of a separate racing series in question. Howett: "I want to emphasize that this is a worst-case scenario would be. It is not our intention to create a separate series to start. If we were in a corner but urges, then yes, it belongs to the possible scenarios."

The plans for such an alternative series are more advanced than assumed by many: "There is experimental discussions with operators and TV stations. It is more about how they would accept such a series. The majority of these people is such an open opportunity opposite. " At work is a comprehensive document, the interested TV stations which will be presented.

On the agreement to force unity through the 50 million Euro penalty:

It is important that the teams in the power struggle with Max Mosley can not split. The temporary suspensions of Williams and Force India are part of the FOTA defeats. To counter such operations in future to be armed, the FOTA engaged in the automobile manufacturers signed a pact, which stipulates that anyone who made the team unannounced Association leakage of 50 million euros to pay.

"There is a document issued by a certain number of teams has been signed," Howett confirmed. This document is also under EU law is perfectly legal. Very much more he wants it but does not disclose: "There is an agreement that we complained about our intentions and actions, so we are not independent of each other as opposed to the interests of other members."

[hulmerist]

It's a VERY slow day at work . . . Apologies if this has already been posted, but here is a very clear statement from Ross Brawn -- Brawn is staying in FOTA
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75901:

"I understand Frank's position, Frank had contractual agreements with Bernie and the FIA which we don't have, so he had some difficulty in that respect," said Brawn about the impact of the Williams entry.

"But the existence of this team was dependent on the support of FOTA teams - McLaren and Mercedes in particular are the reason why we are here, and I think the FOTA initiatives are good.

"We seem to have had a disconnection in terms of liaising and negotiating with the FIA, and that has perhaps been the problem because FOTA has got a lot of good ideas and the FIA has got a lot of good ideas. Hopefully those ideas will be brought together to find a solution.

"We seem to have disconnected somehow in this process and what we need to do is reconnect, and I feel that I want to be part of FOTA. It is a good initiative and I feel I can help more towards finding a solution being a member of FOTA than I can stepping out of it, so I intend to remain within FOTA."

Most F1 pronouncements are like Byron's epitaph -- "writ in water," but Brawn is a straightforward man and that statement is pretty definite.

brawn is safe anyway, he knows the fia will need them in the series next year whatever happens since they'll most likely win the drivers and constructors

ferrari and mclaren have big history in the sport and they won't want to lose them either

which leaves the rest of them, who are all pretty disposable

[WhiteBlue]

1.) A very bad translation indeed. Take my word that Howett has not confirmed anything but the existance of a common document. Everything else is rumor. It is becoming a strong rumor though as Martin Brundle talks about it in the Times as well. Martin will have some verification in order to publish such stuff.

2.) There was speculation again that FIF1 was threatened with not getting a seat and not having the Indian GP approved by FOM. But again this was all speculation. It is fact that FIF1 have a similar contract like Williams and Ferrari and are legally obliged to show up for racing. Being in breach of that contract it would be legitimate to put pressure on them to reach an agreement out of court.

3.) Yes Howett confirms that: " There are tentative discussions with promoters and TV stations. This is more about canvassing the reception of such a series. The majority of these people is open towards such an opportunity." According to Auto Bild Howett also talks about work on a comprehensive presentation/document which is being prepared for TV companies.

So really nothing sensational. You could have an MBA student make a number of telefone calls and make a write up and justify the same comments in the press. Usually the more talk is in the open domain the less serious real world work is being carried out.

[donskar]

THANKS! for clearing it up. Google needs a bit of work on their translator program . . .

[donskar]

So Max has finally spoken.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75961

"Enter unconditionally, then we'll talk."

[ISLAMATRON]

kinda harsh reply to FOTA but he is right to mention that the new teams should have a say in any new regs

[timbo]

kinda harsh reply to FOTA but he is right to mention that the new teams should have a say in any new regs

But why? You know that BE has a hand in Williams and probably FI and for sure in some of new names. There's no hope for unanimous agreement. MM and BE can play with the field the way they want.

[donskar]

I'd love to see a peaceful compromise solution, becaue right now I see a lose-lose situation. But I don't think this will work.

Mosley claimed that the best way the teams could help mould the future of the sport the way they wanted would be to drop the conditions attached to the entries they had made to the 2010 championship.

Best way to make changes is to agree to everything you want to change . . .

In fact, he reckoned it would be 'simple' to find a solution to FOTA's concerns about new rules if all the teams lodged unconditional entries and signed up for a budget cap - before helping create new regulations.

"Simple"?

"Under the International Sporting Code (Art. 66) we cannot now change the published 2010 rules unless we have the consent of all the competitors who have entered," wrote Mosley in the letter, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT. "However once we have a list of confirmed entries, we can make changes provided we have the necessary unanimous agreement. . . .
"It is of course up to you, but the simplest way to ensure that all entrants run under the same rules would be if everyone entered under the cost-cap rules as published and then all entrants cooperated to agree modifications to those rules which would make the proposition workable for all parties."

So, Max seems to be saying, "sign up, agreeing to accept rules and regulations you are opposed to. THEN, if all the teams who have signed up because they wanted those rules agree to run under different rules, everything will be OK."

Correct me if the following scenario is unrealistic:
Assume FOTA trusts Max to keep his word. OK, assume it anyway. The FOTA teams sign up unconditionally. Some weeks thereafter, all the teams sit down to set up "new" rules and regulations. One key is the budget, of course. FOTA says they want a graduated budget reduction. ANY team (whether influenced by Max or not) can veto that proposal-- and any other change.

All Max has to do is accept one new team who he influences and he can use that team to block ANY change, right?

I hope I'm missing something here . . .

[ISLAMATRON]

kinda harsh reply to FOTA but he is right to mention that the new teams should have a say in any new regs

But why? You know that BE has a hand in Williams and probably FI and for sure in some of new names. There's no hope for unanimous agreement. MM and BE can play with the field the way they want.

Maybe not unanimous agreement, but maybe negotiations. Honestly FOTA has gotten everything they've asked for but still refuse to accept the budget cap. The cap was raised 10 mil pounds, Drivers were taken out of the cap(So the big money teams will still have the best drivers money can buy, as was 1 team official(such as Flav, or Newey, or Luca), engine costs(so now the engine making teams can have stronger ones than the customer teams even under the cap), and hospitality/marketing so the big teams would again have another advantage in gaining even more sponsorship.

I know the regs call for a unanimous desicison but as you see with FOTA, even with BMW voting to keep KERS FOTA went with the majority decision and banned it. Even with 3 new added teams the current 8 rebel teams would still hold the majority in FOTA.

[ISLAMATRON]

Donskar, you are not missing anything at all... in any negotiations a little bit of trust in necessary to even begin them. I too think it would be foolish for FOTA to submit unconditional entries, but Mosely is correct that the new teams should have a say in any new rules. The problem is we dont know how many new teams there will be until the old teams submit entries.

Seriously the FOTA should just join the cap, it really wouldnt be that difficult for them, it would probably be profitable for them.

[timbo]

Seriously the FOTA should just join the cap, it really wouldnt be that difficult for them, it would probably be profitable for them.

Here's what Frank Williams said about cap and personnel:

o one part of me says yes, could do with a financial breather but the other part is that dismantling Williams to get down to the 40 means firing, I don't know… Hang on, I must be careful because our people in the factory will read this, but what I'd say now is that it means further cuts.

And everyone is in situation like this. Probably it would be easier for manufacturers as they can send some people to other branches of their business, but jumping from 400-500 or more workers to say 100 is not the best thing to do in a year.