Electric wheel guns

[mzso]

I guess this might also be an issue in F1 and might even lead to dangerous developments on the hubs, it would simply suddenly make shorter threads and less friction even more attractive. I am not sure if they are enough specified in the rules for a change to slower wheel guns.

Thinking outside the box for a moment: Why use wheel guns and nuts at all. Why not just use something that clamps on?
Hell it could be integral to the wheel. You'd just need some special tool spread the stuff when the tire is attached or removed.

[Big Tea]

on this subject, I had not seen this before, worth a look

[Just_a_fan]

I guess this might also be an issue in F1 and might even lead to dangerous developments on the hubs, it would simply suddenly make shorter threads and less friction even more attractive. I am not sure if they are enough specified in the rules for a change to slower wheel guns.

Thinking outside the box for a moment: Why use wheel guns and nuts at all. Why not just use something that clamps on?
Hell it could be integral to the wheel. You'd just need some special tool spread the stuff when the tire is attached or removed.

Go one step further - why change the wheels/tyres at all during a race other than because of a puncture or dramatically changed conditions?

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

[JordanMugen]

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

A return to the 2005 tyre rules would be very interesting!

[Just_a_fan]

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

A return to the 2005 tyre rules would be very interesting!

It would, wouldn't it? A tyre that lasts would need to be able to be warmed up quickly but also not be worked so hard that it struggled at the end of the race. A different approach by both the teams and the drivers.

[AR3-GP]

I guess this might also be an issue in F1 and might even lead to dangerous developments on the hubs, it would simply suddenly make shorter threads and less friction even more attractive. I am not sure if they are enough specified in the rules for a change to slower wheel guns.

Thinking outside the box for a moment: Why use wheel guns and nuts at all. Why not just use something that clamps on?
Hell it could be integral to the wheel. You'd just need some special tool spread the stuff when the tire is attached or removed.

Go one step further - why change the wheels/tyres at all during a race other than because of a puncture or dramatically changed conditions?

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

Or....one team could just get better at pit stops...

[Just_a_fan]

Thinking outside the box for a moment: Why use wheel guns and nuts at all. Why not just use something that clamps on?
Hell it could be integral to the wheel. You'd just need some special tool spread the stuff when the tire is attached or removed.

Go one step further - why change the wheels/tyres at all during a race other than because of a puncture or dramatically changed conditions?

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

Or....one team could just get better at pit stops...

If there are no pit stops, you can be as good as you like at them but it won't matter.

[Zynerji]

Make the tyres last the entire race and you avoid having to do any of this stuff during most races.

A return to the 2005 tyre rules would be very interesting!

I'm down with this for a season. It would definitely make the GP a pure sprint with no refueling or tyre change (unless rain. Of course).

[AR3-GP]

I have strong reservations about the ability of the current supplier to develop a race lasting tire at all circuits.

In 2005, Michelin and Bridgestone were doing custom tires for the teams. It was a free for all.

[Chuckjr]

On the other hand, bring back the refueling and short stint options. Let’s be brave and open the can of 4 stop strategies so we can have epic races like this again.

[ElroyElroy]

Having had experience using both pneumatic and electric impact guns, I would say that either electric or battery would be an unviable option. F1 impact guns run at over 350 psi, whereas the guns in your local tire shop run at about 90 psi. The torque on F1 guns is around 3200 ft/lbs, whereas typical tire shop guns are around 1300 at best.

These are individual team customized super-high-performance torque wrenches that most of us (including mechanics) have never seen. To reproduce their performance with the best lithium ion batteries would take an extremely heavy gun. Also, as we know, these lithium ion batteries have their own set of problems, and pneumatics is an extremely mature technology with an extremely low failure rate.

With Max Verstappen coming in with two laps to go for a fresh set of softs to snag the fastest lap, you don't want one of these wheel guns giving you problems.

And the only place we've really seen any failures in this area is with the steel torque gun hub stripping the teeth off of the light-weight metal wheel nut, and the teams have worked diligently to improve that interface in recent years. IIRC, it's been at least a couple of years since even this has been a problem.

[mzso]

Having had experience using both pneumatic and electric impact guns, I would say that either electric or battery would be an unviable option. F1 impact guns run at over 350 psi, whereas the guns in your local tire shop run at about 90 psi. The torque on F1 guns is around 3200 ft/lbs, whereas typical tire shop guns are around 1300 at best.

These are individual team customized super-high-performance torque wrenches that most of us (including mechanics) have never seen. To reproduce their performance with the best lithium ion batteries would take an extremely heavy gun. Also, as we know, these lithium ion batteries have their own set of problems, and pneumatics is an extremely mature technology with an extremely low failure rate.

With Max Verstappen coming in with two laps to go for a fresh set of softs to snag the fastest lap, you don't want one of these wheel guns giving you problems.

And the only place we've really seen any failures in this area is with the steel torque gun hub stripping the teeth off of the light-weight metal wheel nut, and the teams have worked diligently to improve that interface in recent years. IIRC, it's been at least a couple of years since even this has been a problem.

WTF is ft/lbs? Doesn't seem to be a real unit. If you mean lb⋅ft then it's 4300 Nm and 1700 Nm.
I actually heard stated that they use 2500Nm. I see at least one commercial product (Milwaukee M18 FUEL™ ONE-KEY™ 1″) that claims to have 2033Nm fastening torque at "half the size and weight" compared to pneumatic, petrol or wired solutions.

And I see no reason why F1 couldn't improve on it by using far more expensive and aggressively designed impact wrenches.

And battery power can be very reliable, if they bother to design tools in such a way. Which might not be the case for commercial tools.

[JordanMugen]

Was the double wheel de-attachment in the F2 feature race, due to the electric impact wrenches being overstressed with doing a double-stacked pitstop?



Perhaps there was an error with how that team prepped their electric impact guns? For whatever reason, I find that weak batteries tend to recover a bit after some time even if they can't sustain torque -- so perhaps some unidentified fault with that team's electric wrenches?

And battery power can be very reliable

Little comfort to Vesti!

Should the fail-safe retention clips that were used on centre-lock wheels in touring car racing in the 80's and 90's, be required once more?

[clownfish]

Was the double wheel de-attachment in the F2 feature race, due to the electric impact wrenches being overstressed with doing a double-stacked pitstop?

No, it was due to the indicator light not resetting after the first car in the double stack:

Explaining their decision to fine Prema, the stewards said: “The green light [on the wheel gun] indicating adequate torque on the wheel stays on for 20 seconds after use. During [Vesti]’s pit-stop the green light on the rear wheel guns can be seen to be on throughout the service.

“While the normal indicators of a successful wheel installation were not available to the team, the team also knew that the green light was meaningless under the circumstances. Given that fact, it is important to take extra care to be sure that the car is released in a safe condition.”

https://formulascout.com/double-wheel-g ... ort/110594

A reset button would seem a sensible addition, or just reset the indicator if the trigger is pressed again.

[DDopey]

So if the FIA thinks these pitstops are too fast and dangerous, electric wheelguns can be the solution.