2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

[Cs98]

Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

I've often thought the BMW i3 R(ange)EX(tender) setup made sense. A mid sized battery for day-to-day with a small petrol generator to keep the battery topped up on longer journeys.
BMW stopped selling the REX model though, apparently there was no customer demand for it.

I suppose a more cynical way of looking at this type of hybrid setup is that you're carrying round the weight of an unused ICE engine & fuel tank for 90% of your journeys. Not to mention the embedded energy/CO2 cost of developing and manufacturing the ICE. With that in mind it's hard to make the case for it.

Not at all, because you are not taking into account the massive weight of the full size EV battery, which weighs way more than an ICE. A standard Tesla Model 3 weighs like 250kg more than a Prius hybrid. That weight is extra material, mainly metals in the battery. Wanna talk about embedded energy and manufacturing emissions, can't avoid talking about those. Batteries are notoriously dirty, the bigger the worse. The battery IMO should be big enough to cover most trips, not all trips, that's where the ICE comes in. Not to mention EVs are a nightmare in northern latitudes.

[clownfish]

Not at all, because you are not taking into account the massive weight of the full size EV battery, which weighs way more than an ICE. A standard Tesla Model 3 weighs like 250kg more than a Prius hybrid. That weight is extra material, mainly metals in the battery. Wanna talk about embedded energy and manufacturing emissions, can't avoid talking about those. Batteries are notoriously dirty, the bigger the worse. The battery IMO should be big enough to cover most trips, not all trips, that's where the ICE comes in. Not to mention EVs are a nightmare in northern latitudes.

Not really a fair comparison. A Model 3 is closer to a 3 series than a Prius.

According to Parkers:

A Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD is 1847kg
A Tesla Model 3 Standard Range (305 miles) is 1726kg
A BMW 330e Xdrive hybrid is 1825kg

I would think that making the steel, plastic, aluminium and all the other materials used in an ICE is every bit as 'dirty' as making an EV battery.

[mzso]

Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

What Toyota understands is that they have a substantial handicap in EV development. So they still promote ICEs.
They also understand that as maybe the largest manufacturer they need not to be in a hurry to pioneer. Let others sort out the design, production, supply and marketing issues. They can enter whenever it suits them best.

EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

I could just as easily say that keeping around an ICE fuel, gearbox and others stuff it implies just for that 10% is "unbelievably stupid".

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

[mzso]

Wanna talk about embedded energy and manufacturing emissions, can't avoid talking about those. Batteries are notoriously dirty, the bigger the worse.

Um, nope. Just like everything else it has it energy/environmental cost to build. But it you only do it once, than use it a thousand times or more. ICE constantly coughs toxins into your lungs.

A standard Tesla Model 3 weighs like 250kg more than a Prius hybrid.

It is also capable of a lot more.
Also, so what? A new ICE sedan might be 1,5 tons (Looked at an A6 quickly), a new Model 3 1,78 tons by the looks of it.
Makes no difference on the road.

[Cs98]

Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

What Toyota understands is that they have a substantial handicap in EV development. So they still promote ICEs.
They also understand that as maybe the largest manufacturer they need not to be in a hurry to pioneer. Let others sort out the design, production, supply and marketing issues. They can enter whenever it suits them best.

EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

I could just as easily say that keeping around an ICE fuel, gearbox and others stuff it implies just for that 10% is "unbelievably stupid".

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

If you don't need that 10% I'm sure you can find a pure EV with a small battery, but for many not having the range for those rare trips is a dealbreaker. The only question is, for the rest of the time, do you want to be dragging along a massive battery or a small ICE? The benefits of the ICE are: It weighs less, it costs less to produce, less emissions in manufacturing, lasts longer , works in the cold, less charge time/you can refuel, etc. You basically get the comfort and environmental benefits of electric for urban use, with the benefits of the ICE for longer trips.

[clownfish]

Because Toyota understand that a hybrid car with a right sized battery and a state of the art ICE is more environmentally friendly than a pure EV with a huge battery. EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

What Toyota understands is that they have a substantial handicap in EV development. So they still promote ICEs.
They also understand that as maybe the largest manufacturer they need not to be in a hurry to pioneer. Let others sort out the design, production, supply and marketing issues. They can enter whenever it suits them best.

EVs with a 250-300 mile range is an unbelievably stupid concept when you can have a hybrid with 50 mile range that covers 90% of your commutes, and a combustion engine for longer travel or when the weather is cold.

I could just as easily say that keeping around an ICE fuel, gearbox and others stuff it implies just for that 10% is "unbelievably stupid".

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

If you don't need that 10% I'm sure you can find a pure EV with a small battery, but for many not having the range for those rare trips is a dealbreaker. The only question is, for the rest of the time, do you want to be dragging along a massive battery or a small ICE? The benefits of the ICE are: It weighs less, it costs less to produce, less emissions in manufacturing, lasts longer , works in the cold, less charge time/you can refuel, etc. You basically get the comfort and environmental benefits of electric for urban use, with the benefits of the ICE for longer trips.

I've quoted the figures above for a 3 series hybrid and a Tesla EV, you will see that there is no great difference, in fact the standard range Tesla is ~100kg lighter.

Even ignoring the weight though, you are carrying round a lot of extra complexity for that last 10%.

[wuzak]

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

You know who sells a fuel cell car?

Toyota.

[Zynerji]

I still like the dual MGU-H Turbo on a muffler setup (like a jet) that burns "clean" compressed natural gas, and powers a front and rear electric motor for AWD cars.

Twin-Jet exhaust sound.
Afterburner overtake button.
Electric torque output.
Supercapacitor regen bank.
Vector differentials for efficiency.

Delete the ICE, but keep the fire!

[mzso]

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

You know who sells a fuel cell car?

Toyota.

Yes, but that concept is stillborn.
Because of hydrogen and because it's not a range extended EV, based on battery to fuel range.

More practical would be an LPG or alcohol based fuel cell.

But anyway, I'm not suggesting it's the way to go. More like an alternative for a small niche. (probably very small, and shrinking) When you must have a long range, and there's no charging available.

Even ignoring the weight though, you are carrying round a lot of extra complexity for that last 10%.

Extra Complexity, unreliability, cost, maintenance.

A Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD is 1847kg
A Tesla Model 3 Standard Range (305 miles) is 1726kg
A BMW 330e Xdrive hybrid is 1825kg

I would think that making the steel, plastic, aluminium and all the other materials used in an ICE is every bit as 'dirty' as making an EV battery.

I've quoted the figures above for a 3 series hybrid and a Tesla EV, you will see that there is no great difference, in fact the standard range Tesla is ~100kg lighter.

A better comparison (hybrid to EV) then mine, somehow I missed it.
I never got the crying about the environmental cost of batteries. The material needs to be mined and process, just like for everything else. It has graphite, lithium, aluminium or manganese, some cobalt, which is being phased out.
Nothing outrageous.

[TeamKoolGreen]

What options does F1 have to try and correct the glaring faults of these 2026 engine regs ?

Bumping up the size and power of the ICE is the only option. This will also help the lack of noise problem. Which was identified as a real problem after 2014

I don't see how movable aero at the front and back can be built safe enough for tracks like Saudi or Vegas. Someone's aero will fail and someone could get killed.

[wuzak]

In my opinion that bit of extra weight for a more batteries is irrelevant for road use. An optimal alternative would be fuel cell range extension, than only requires the cell and the tank. But no-one really developed such a system.

You know who sells a fuel cell car?

Toyota.

Yes, but that concept is stillborn.
Because of hydrogen and because it's not a range extended EV, based on battery to fuel range.

More practical would be an LPG or alcohol based fuel cell.

But anyway, I'm not suggesting it's the way to go. More like an alternative for a small niche. (probably very small, and shrinking) When you must have a long range, and there's no charging available.

Curious that you consider fuel cells to be a "range extender".

The fuel cell vehicles from Toyota and Hyundai run on hydrogen, but they also have batteries. The batteries can provide extra power when required, and are used to store energy from brake regeneration.

LPG or alcohol fuel cells would still produce CO2.

Maybe ammonia is a better solution.

[AR3-GP]

It's a good point. Battery technology enables brake energy recovery which grants a significant amount of efficiency. This is desirable even in a non-BEV/alternatively fueled vehicle. Although perhaps in a fuel cell application, one could use a supercapacitor to capture brake energy. Toyota was the leading expert on vehicle supercapacitors with their early TS030 hybrid prototypes so if they did not see it fit to use the supercapacitor in the Mirai, there's probably a flaw that I have not considered.

[mzso]

What options does F1 have to try and correct the glaring faults of these 2026 engine regs ?

Bumping up the size and power of the ICE is the only option. This will also help the lack of noise problem. Which was identified as a real problem after 2014

I don't see how movable aero at the front and back can be built safe enough for tracks like Saudi or Vegas. Someone's aero will fail and someone could get killed.

I think it only needs more fuel.

However there is no such thing as "lack of noise" problem.

[mzso]

You know who sells a fuel cell car?

Toyota.

Yes, but that concept is stillborn.
Because of hydrogen and because it's not a range extended EV, based on battery to fuel range.

More practical would be an LPG or alcohol based fuel cell.

But anyway, I'm not suggesting it's the way to go. More like an alternative for a small niche. (probably very small, and shrinking) When you must have a long range, and there's no charging available.

Curious that you consider fuel cells to be a "range extender".

The fuel cell vehicles from Toyota and Hyundai run on hydrogen, but they also have batteries. The batteries can provide extra power when required, and are used to store energy from brake regeneration.

LPG or alcohol fuel cells would still produce CO2.

Maybe ammonia is a better solution.

You really don't have basis for the mocking tone.
For one I said it is not a range extended EV. Because it has a teeny battery.
And using hydrogen fundamentally kills the technology. It wastes lots of energy, better used charging batteries.
So it would make sense to use fuel cells (not based on troublesome hydrogen) for rage extension, if it's really needed. Though to be fair it seems to be a quickly shrinking niche.

Those only produces CO2 if sourced from fossil fuels. (There is such thing as bioLPG as well)


Ammonia is hazardous substance. Not even good sarcasm to bring it up...

[mzso]

I still like the dual MGU-H Turbo on a muffler setup (like a jet) that burns "clean" compressed natural gas, and powers a front and rear electric motor for AWD cars.

Twin-Jet exhaust sound.
Afterburner overtake button.
Electric torque output.
Supercapacitor regen bank.
Vector differentials for efficiency.

Delete the ICE, but keep the fire!

A gas turbine is still an ICE.
Not sure what would be the gain. All that complexity and money for a little bit of jet sound. And it's not likely to be as efficient as current PUs.