## Aerodynamic design AND optimization of an f1 rear spoiler

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
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SZ[quote="flynfrog wrote:get your airfoils and your AoA right then move to three dimensions and work on endplates after that add a gurney if you are feeling frisky

Why?

flynfrog wrote:You might look and see if you have a FSAE team on campus develop a wing for there car maybe do a front and rear. That way you have real world speeds and Hp to deal with.

Or you might look into the third post of this thread - which was very, very valid - then look into a library, then think for a bit. And achieve a lot.[/quote]

I am assuming he has a semester to work on this. You cut down alot of processing time by using a 2d siumlation to get most of the way there. It makes little sense to start adding VGs ect if the wing isnt right to start with.

I agree with the third post but it makes mine no less valid it helps to have an end goal in mind.
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006

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flynfrog wrote:I would start with 2d simulation first to cut down on time. get your airfoils and your AoA right then move to three dimensions and work on endplates after that add a gurney if you are feeling frisky.

this will proably teach you the most.

You might look and see if you have a FSAE team on campus develop a wing for there car maybe do a front and rear. That way you have real world speeds and Hp to deal with.

I would agree with 2D simulations to set up the multi-element aerofoil profiles.

In fact, you could quickly show just how much lift is lost due to a real wing having wingtips instead of an infinite span. That would be a useful academic demonstration.

Then you could add endplates and show the improvement made. A few quick plots of spanwise properties (such as local velocities, or the spanwise lift distrbution) would keep most lecturers happy.

If you've time after that, then consider VGs.

About the only thing I would recommend from the FSAE team would be speed ranges. The rest is simply un-necessary complications.

You are doing a final yr project, not a Phd. Do not expect to get an awful lot done... NEVER plan your project on the basis of needing to complete all the work to write a coherent report.

Simple chunks. As I said earlier.

1. Validate.
2. Setup a simple problem.
3. Compare a limited number of different designs using 1 or 2 control variables.

That is plenty for a final year project. Anyone says do more are just filling your head full of sh!t. Don't forget, you have to stand over this, so don't try to much and end up with nothing, I've seen it all too often.
kilcoo316
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Joined: 9 Mar 2005
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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kilcoo316 wrote:You are doing a final yr project, not a Phd. Do not expect to get an awful lot done... NEVER plan your project on the basis of needing to complete all the work to write a coherent report.

I can't help with aerodynamics, but this is great advice IMHO. People here that don't do this take nearly two years to complete their final project (but in electrical engineering)...
"We will have to wait and see".
pipex
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Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Location: The net

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+1 kilcoo. Do a simple project well and go far.

You won't need FSAE involvement at all. Rather than play with VG's for your extra 'bit', some endplate optimisation - think 3D - might be a nice touch. There's some good stuff to be done. Don't worry about what, just get a good, well-thought out simulation done first - there's enough in that, and enough learning to keep you in good stead.
SZ
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Joined: 21 May 2007

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Okay, sorry, actually i know the basics of airfoils and the way how they work etc.

I think i wrote my question wrong or gave you to much informations about what exactly i want... i just wanted to read something about HOW these multi elements interact together and so on.

I know the principle why it is better to use muli elements, but would be nice to read again something about it IF someone could recommend a good book about this or so.

I also know the "basics" about CFD and also did a lot of work with basic airfoils in my last semester.

And yes it is right, this work is for my final year project, so i have 1 year time for all of this.

Anyway, I'm very thankful for all the new tips and info's all of you gave me again after my last post

I think i will do it like you recommendet, i will start with a single airfoil, develop step by step a mult element airfoil (everything in 2D) and at the end i will design it in 3d. I already developed the effect of a gurney flap on a 2D airfoil.

My next step is just to think about all the single steps i will tackle in my project (the whole content).
Zweeper
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Joined: 24 Oct 2009

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Zweeper,

I am doing a very similar project to you, infact its basically the same for my final year dissertation.

You need to go back and read text books, and fully understand the theory before you can go ahead at start designing, you havent even validated a mesh type etc etc.

I am using a different program to you: Star CCM+

Personlly i think you need to stop, take a breathe, look at what you have done so far, look and what you aim to do, and research the relevant topics. An excellent book is Race car aerodynamics by Joseph Katz, whom i actually met last week at the world motorsport symposium.

I do have a question for the other readers of this thread so if someone who has alot of experience could pm me so that i could ask them that would be much appriciated.

Regards
Aetherfx
Aetherfx
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Joined: 26 Nov 2009

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Final year project? Then it has to be something new, innovative, or something that can be used to make or save money, time or lives easier etc. That always pleases the lecturers! I would not waste time investigating something that has already been done. The lecturers will ask, "what is the purpose of this?" And you will be in a tough spot right there.

So try to find in some way, that you can apply/investigate it in a simple form to something that it has never been applied to/investigated before. Or just switch to one of those easy projects. You just want to get an A and get out of there!
"I was blessed with the ability to understand how cars move," he explains. "You know how in 'The Matrix,' he can see the matrix? When I'm driving, I see the lines."
n smikle
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008

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i am designing my own rear wing. I have a few innovative ideas im going to putting to the test which i think will prove interesting.

Im going to get an A in this dissertation, no point doing something easy for the sake of it. Especially when im planning to do a masters in race car aero.

Anyone here heard of prof geoff goddard?

regards
Aetherfx
Aetherfx
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Joined: 26 Nov 2009

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Aetherfx wrote:i am designing my own rear wing. I have a few innovative ideas im going to putting to the test which i think will prove interesting.

Im going to get an A in this dissertation, no point doing something easy for the sake of it. Especially when im planning to do a masters in race car aero.

Anyone here heard of prof geoff goddard?

regards
Aetherfx

Yes I have but more to do with engines than aerodynamics. Still good to have a professor who has industry experience no matter what area so no worries.
bajanf1
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Joined: 17 May 2009

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Yeah he is my engines lecturer but he is pretty knowlegable with aero as he studied terbine aero.
Aetherfx
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Joined: 26 Nov 2009

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