Mclaren and Mercedes partnership

[autogyro]

God, I dread the idea of a company with the history and earned respect of Cosworth coming under the control of someone like Ron Dennis.
I still think of him as a mechanic with aspirations above his station much as Enzo Ferrari did.
You only have to reflect on the fiasco of the Merc SLR road car to see where Dennis would lead an engine manufacturing set up.
Expensive copies of Lotus road cars is where that idea should stay.

What matters in top technology engine manufacture like F1 engines, is the brilliant people involved in it, not the bells and whistle names of the companies and their front men.

[feynman]

Could you expand on that?

I thought the SLR fiasco was the primary motivation driving Ron to divorce Mercedes. That fat monstrosity was anathema to everything he regarded as being vital to a modern sports car. You won't see any SLRs in the roadmap for the McLaren roadcar range.

I am therefore confused as to how he ends up being the bad guy in that story?

And then attempting to invoke the class snobbery of an Enzo Ferrari, to aid your argument, surely a miscalculation. I can't see how that plays well here.
A 'mechanic' whose drive and ambition built a team, built champions, that built the MTC, that breaks ground on the MPC, that is surely something to be enjoyed, not sneered at.
Aspiration and social mobility are good things. They are the some of the values I appreciate most in the McLaren ethos. You seem more concerned about trying to keep people "at their station".

[Herr_Koos]

Her Koos (afrikaans meneertjie?)
)

Very much so, boet!

Anyhow, thanks for the background on the engine, I wasn't aware of that.

[raymondu999]

Actually, wasn't BMW's engine division for sale? What ever happened to that?

[xpensive]

I belive there is this a Swiss citizen, Mario Ilien, currently on gardening leave from Mercedes, who should know a thing or two about both current F1 and methanol turbo engines.

But I can't see anything happening until the new rules are set, but then anything can happen, Renault will drop out, that's pretty obvious. Then McLaren staying with Mercedes as customers, not in this lifetime.

Btw, are Toyota's engine facilities for sale?

[alexbarwell]

I can't see much mileage in getting wound up about names, or similar semantics - the team engineers stand to spec, direct and feedback a lot to engine designers, various parts are contracted out, saying any car is exclusively the product of the given badge could be argued. Mclaren did get on quite well with the BMW engine as they fitted in the F1. But of course with the name paying the big sponsorship bucks - call me what you like, so long as it pays well

[autogyro]

Call me what you like as long as it pays well.

Says all that needs to be said about todays world and the decline it is in.

[raymondu999]

Btw, are Toyota's engine facilities for sale?

I don't think they're sold per se, but I believe that they're still somehow operational? If we remember back to the Stefan GP who wanted to make 2010, they had acquired the 2010 Toyota design, as well as the Toyota RVX-10 engines (I think that's what it was called. Do correct me if I'm wrong)

[xpensive]

Btw, are Toyota's engine facilities for sale?

I don't think they're sold per se, but I believe that they're still somehow operational? If we remember back to the Stefan GP who wanted to make 2010, they had acquired the 2010 Toyota design, as well as the Toyota RVX-10 engines (I think that's what it was called. Do correct me if I'm wrong)

Never paid any money though did they? One can wonder how Toyota performes its due diligence?
But with Marmorini and Gascoyne, it shouuld be a state of the art facility.

Anyone remember how Peugeot got rid of their engine facility, what a joke.

[raymondu999]

Off topic, but maybe Toyota only had an agreement in principle and nothing was actually transferred to Stefan GP yet?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

They are the some of the values I appreciate most in the McLaren ethos

McLaren ethos? 2007-2009 hardly inspirational for a new-found companies "ethos".

As for the "fat monstrosity" SLR, its not a B-road weapon that some had aspirations for, so bloody what? Its hardly a bad or even average car!
Mercedes-Benz gave McLaren a mandate to develop a supercar, with certain elements being essential in the finished product. McLaren agreed to it but, missed the mark.
So Mclaren failed to do what they thought they could.

Look at what AMG has achieved in the SLS AMG for a lesson in how to execute a Mercedes supercar. Perhaps McLaren can only make one type of car, if that is the case, good luck to them when the market changes!

[autogyro]

From my own experience I would say that anyone who set up an engine manufacturing company just to make F1 engines would need their head examined.
It is the engineers that make these top engine companies, the equipment and names moves around subject to other forces.
Much like F1 as a whole these days.
Shame realy.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

True,

But McLaren do not have £100 million (at present) to go out and buy an F1 engine maker. And as they expose themselves to profit and loss in the "real world", nor will they have the appetite to do so.

Someone mentioned Cosworth going to McLaren for this sum, be a sad day indeed.

[xpensive]

When McLaren hasn't paid one dime for their engines for eons, with TAG-Porsche, Honda, Peugeot and Mercedes, it will be interesting to see how this evolves.

[ESPImperium]

Personally, i can see McLaren producing its own engines in the future. I can see this being done in about 3 or 4 ways.

Posibility 1 = Buy Cosworth for a sum of money, and split the company into 3. F1 engines would be one area, Electronics would be consumed by McLaren Electronic Systems (MES) and all Cosworth electronics would become part of MES, thus becoming like Magnetti Marenelli, and the third devision would be still for supplying other areas that need engines like Motorboats.

Posibility 2 = Buy over a company like Zytek, split it in a simmilar way to Cosworth, but also use them to produce a F1 engine. But heres the curveball, use the Zytek arm to compete in Le Mans and compete with the posibility of Ferarri and McLaren with LMP1 or LMP2 cars in there alongside Lola-Aston Martin, Peugoet and Audi.

Posibility 3 = Buy over IP for a engine manufacturer that has left the sport, either BMW or Toyota aint gonna be hard to deal with, a sum that is posibly gonna be in the teens of millions, but the thing with that is start up costs for a engine plant. Not to mention staffing needs. This method would also purchace all powerplatns that manufacturer also has working at present.

Posibility 4 = Start developing their own cars (whitch they have started) and then once thye payback has started happening, then start to develop the road based infrustructure to support the F1 engine side later, this is the most long term of the views, but could be the most probable.

Personally i think its only a matter of time for us seeing a "Scuderia McLaren" car on the F1 cuircit, but the thing is when. In my Opinion i think it could be as early as 2016, but it is all down to Ron Dennis and what his vision is. Its only a matter of time, it will happen, but is down to the money situation, and what Ron wants, thats the way i see it.